Michael Pollan FTW

[roadriverrail]

Michael Pollan frames my views on the ethics of eating meat. Then hits the nail on the head, hits it again with a sledgehammer, and hangs that framed view on the nail

Comments

[lilchiva]

Reading Animal Liberation as a youngster was a big part of the reason why I rejected egalitarianism.

[roadriverrail]

Is it the use of their marginal human cases? If not, could you explain further?

No it wasn't exactly that

[lilchiva]

Well somewhere during reading it struck me that this is an extraordinarily privileged argument. Most of the human world lives without constant access to electricity and potable water. Most of the world's people can not read beyond a few rudimentary sentences. Many many people face starvation as a fact of life. We do next to nothing for these people. In fact, there are very good economic arguments which suggest we need to exploit a large section of the human population. That this is somehow necessary, in order to make possible the lifestyle that most in so-called first world nations have.There are also very good economic arguments that suggest that things need not be this way at all

Re: No it wasn't exactly that

[roadriverrail]

See, when I think of including egalitarianism in my sense of ethics, I think of it rather realistically. I know it's not happening right now. How could I not? I went to business school!

But, that doesn't change the fact that I think it's something worth working towards. As I said, I believe that ethics aren't parsimonious, but to the extent that I'm egalitarian, I am so because I recognize that there are people who are not me who are in conditions worse than my own, and it's in considering that they probably don't like those conditions that I am admitting in an egalitarian leaning. I don't believe that that is necessarily such a bad thing.

From what I'm reading from you, I'd think you'd consider that not such a bad thing either.

[radven]

Great article - thank you for linking it.

It pretty much nails how I've come to feel about meat. I just wish it were easier to find places that serve humane meat, and to pressure places that do not.

Particularly restaurants.

[roadriverrail]

Indeed. I think that it's possible for them to start to be seen as more normal in time. Rabid carnivore Anthony Bourdain is actually cheerleading this more than it might first seem. His continual praises are for food that has simple craftmanship embedded at every level, including meat raising. This seems to be a tip of the iceberg in a change for the fine dining community. Eventually, this can trickle down to other food sectors.

Granted, things like McDonald's won't go that route. The nut of the cultural entanglement with assembly line food is a tricky one, and not the least of the tricky parts is the way in which bad food has been made so cheap.

[radven]

Actually - I think places like McDonald's may prove to be key. At least the key towards vastly improving the standards at factory farms. The fast food industry has massive leverage on the production industry, and they are also very sensitive to brand damage that could come from being associated with inhumane food.

I think a lot of the changes for the better that have come over the past decade have been because of this.

- Chris

[roadriverrail]

They are, and I agree, but at the same time, I don't know that this will have an ultimate long-run effect. If McDonald's has to raise the price of a burger to prevent larger losses due to a tarnished image, it leaves the room open for another chain to undercut their prices and become the provider of assembly-line meat for cheap assembly-line food.

A frighteningly high number of people rely on fast food for several meals a week and many of them subsist on it. These people are seeking cheap, quick food because it often is the only thing they know how to fit into their lives. These people will happily move to the new low bidder.

[fitfool]

Thanks for linking to that article! I've felt guilty about my meat consumption after I heard about how they lived. But I shrugged and said I was a broke student and couldn't afford to eat meat that was 2 to 5 times more expensive. I accepted humans as being the top of the food chain and that was that. But... I have an income stream now. And the guilt is creeping back. I don't really care if the animals were fed an organic antibiotic-free diet but I do care about their living conditions. So thanks for the reminder. I'll be looking for a local CSA for my meats. I'll still eat whatever meats the restaurants serve but I'll take a small step at a time and at least try to buy the meats I prepare at home from places where I know the animals had it good while they were alive. I agree with the comments already made. It's a decision that I can make when in a privileged position but having been lucky enough to enjoy this privileged position, I get to make that choice. If I look for the label free-range chicken, can I assume they lived a

[roadriverrail]

First off, thank you for at least taking the time to think about these things. I have hinted at writing a new blog to supplement Greentime called Germinate, and my inaugural essay is under the working title of "We Won't Make It On Our Own". The point is that personal change is good, but it won't change the problems alone. The point of personal change is to cause others to stop, consider the options, and try choosing other.

In your case, that's working. It's a topic of concern for you, and one day, when businesses cater to that value, you'll be like a lot of people (myself included)-- ready to jump. That's a sign the early struggles have not been in vain.

If I look for the label free-range chicken, can I assume they lived a reasonably good life?

Perhaps someone else will jump in and help me out here (maybe the recent Local Food convert one_woman_army), but it's my understanding that most roaster chickens are kept in conditions most people would call "free range", in that they're allowed to walk around and stretch and squawk at the other

[kahluagal]

Yeah, there seems to be degrees of free-range - there's evil cages (the one extreme), the 'free range' where they can walk around a bit, and then the traditional farm model, where they get to walk around in wider varieties of terrain (i.e. grass). I had a chance to see Michael Pollan speak at Stanford the other day - the venue they picked was so packed, there were people standing outside the auditorium looking thorugh the windows even if they couldn't hear anything. Pretty amazing to watch. He was a fantastic speaker, and his words of encouragement to the slow food movement stuff was great to hear. He also did a lot of discussion on the linkage between health and food and railed passionately for the single payer health care system (which I thanked him for later).

[kahluagal]

forgot to add, yes, the link between emotion and ethics is not often brought up - but shapes so many discussions we have especially around sensitive personal issues (like those that deal with life or death issues like abortion). It would be good to explore the links between them - I think it influences us on a much more deep level than people realize.