Now that I'm writing all this gen, I'm thinking about non-con

[rivkat]

Note: of tangential relevance at best to the general warnings discussion. Rather than engaging with the dos/don’ts, I’m talking here about the meaning I give to particular terms, mainly “dub-con” or dubious consent. I’m interested in others’ definitions and usages, but it is unlikely I will stop enjoying dub-con in fanfic and I value having a way

Comments

[stakebait]

Parenthetical to your main line of argument -- one of the reasons I like to have both "non-con" and "rape" available is that I write and read stories in which the non-consensual act, while sexualized, is not standard penetration within the meaning of the act.

[rivkat]

Yeah, whereas I'd go with "rape" for, at least, nonstandard penetration/forced genital contact. Which is not at all to say you should! This is why I think having multiple terms available is useful, inevitable, and occasionally confusing (but still useful).

[aynatonal]

Since one source of my own fannish pleasure also lives and breathes in the dub-con/eroticized power disparities place, I'm happy to see authors exploring it. I also respect the struggle/problems/discomfort that some folks have with this fantasy. I know that for some people, flirting with the boundaries of the coercion/rape line is just not pleasurable, and there's nothing wrong with that. "Issues of consent" is a vague label, true, but I think it does communicate something useful.

[rivkat]

I'm now wondering whether I'm making things even more confused by bringing in eroticized power disparities. I think those don't necessarily make a story dubcon: for example, if Clark & Lex both like it when Clark uses his strength and "makes" Lex beg, or if they both like it when Lex brings out the Kryptonite. That's the characters liking eroticized power disparities. Whereas when I enjoy dubcon, it's me liking the eroticized power disparities, and it works as dubcon for me when the characters are conflicted about whether the sex is a good idea, and often enough when they think it's a bad idea (but go ahead anyway, for various reasons).

[wearemany]

when I enjoy dubcon, it's me liking the eroticized power disparities, and it works as dubcon for me when the characters are conflicted about whether the sex is a good idea, and often enough when they think it's a bad idea (but go ahead anyway, for various reasons).yes, this is where i ran into the most confusion on my own fic-lit review. you and i write fairly different stories on any number of levels, but i'm asking myself a lot of these same questions

[rivkat]

Thanks for this. I like how you put it: it's about power, like Buffy/The First says, and I too hope that my sex scenes illuminate character, which means I hope they illuminate power relationships.

You're right about MacKinnon, though she might say that one effect of power is to make resistance sexier than nonresistance, or at least sexy in a different way.

Myself, I don't define purely internal conflicts as dubcon (though "consenting, dubiously" might cover it); I need a mistake or an external stressor/mind-influencer. For me, the kink of "Dean doesn't want to have sex with Sam but consents to keep him closer" is Sam not knowing Dean's reason, which (Dean knows) would destroy the pleasure for him--the gap in communication, as well as the gap in power, and how that makes the power relations even more tangled. This is why that one story of torch's where Mulder is having sex with Skinner to keep the X-Files is one of my ur-fics. But there are all kinds of places on the spectrum, and that's why I like the tropes/summaries as

[rivkat]

Thanks! Yeah, issues of consent are embedded in lots of our culture, so it's not surprising that there are a lot of different definitions/terms.

I would draw the lines somewhat differently, because there are situations where threats are too coercive for me to think of them as dubcon, "have sex or I'll kill you" being the core one and extending at least to "have sex or I'll kill your brother."

Because in stories we control the narrative, we get to distinguish based on intent and effect in ways that don't mimic real life; if the character setting up the circumstance--or, even better for me, a third character--intends that the target character enjoy the sex and achieves that goal, I'm much more inclined to call it dubcon, even though I'd definitely call the same scenario rape for a person.

[rivkat]

Oh yes, I too see the appeal! And yes, it works for me when the villain is being evil and sadistic, obviously, given what I've written.

I think pleasure is hard enough to find that I would never ask anyone for consistency, especially when I think we do need to examine our pleasures for various problems they may be reinforcing out in the world. If you can write it but not read it, that's just how it works for you--and I think control is really important; writing it allows you to thread a very fine needle just the way you want it threaded.

[erda_3]

I like a higher percentage of dub-con in slash because it feels like I can get the thrill of issues of consent between two people who are attracted to each other but have various barriers to acting on that attraction without the misogyny, or at a minimum accommodation to the strictures of heterosexism, that regularly accompanies this trope in het (note that I am not saying slash escapes or is more likely to escape misogyny, I am saying that slash dub-con more readily gets me hot without my inner censor telling me I am a bad feminist, and that I value this effect in particular cases while remaining concerned about it in general).

I love the way you've explained this, as I've been struggling to get this clear in my own mind for a long time. Dub-con is my favorite place to be as a reader, but it's too raw for me to tolerate in het.

[rivkat]

Thanks!

[cellia]

Wow, I feel the same way about so much of this (probably why I enjoy your stories so much

[rivkat]

Thanks! I'm not sure how much fantasy rape, the way you put it, I even read any more; I tend to see noncon/rape as relatively interchangeable, because the stuff I like is not usually "X fucked Y because X knew Y would like it once they got started," at least not when X is in his right mind. Now, put X on sex pollen and you've got my attention. But it's really useful to hear about the different usages--I've definitely seen that distinction, between rape and rape-as-kink.