There is no afterlife, only thermodynamic equilibrium.

[ribbin]

Yesterday, I shared an interesting article about religious arguments on Google+, and mentioned atheism. Specifically, I've always been an open minded atheist, almost agnostic at times, but in the past couple of years I've become increasingly hard-nosed, culminating in a final puzzle piece last spring that nailed the subject shut forme

Comments

[squeekiemouse]

Interesting. I will think on this, thank you.

One thought I had reading it bears mentioning. It is not an argument against, exactly, but I suppose it could be seen as such.

You mention that this thinking 'like the other' has no focus with hunting removed from the picture. What about thinking like other human beings? I posit that many people do this at some level, but those that are -really- good at it get rewarded in society in general. Empathy becomes possible. Being able to think like other people opens large doors for manipulation, both positive and negative. By thinking like other people, a person has the ability to make convincing arguments that speak to others' needs, wants, motivations etc. I would say most politicians, for example, do this for better or worse. Probably most leaders, probably most successful managers, and well, any sort of leadership position, really. Certainly the ones that people think are good at their jobs, anyway.

As a side note, I read a neat article recently about how a study has found that Chimps consider their audience while communicating with each other. A team of researchers placed a fake predator snake on the ground, and the chimps reacted differently to it based on who they were with and if that chimp already knew the snake was there or had seen it. Neat stuff!

[ribbin]

That actually makes a lot of sense. So just to play the devil's advocate in the original sense: as you pointed out, chimps know their audiences and have even been known to lie. They can certainly see cause and effect in others. Even dogs will bluff sometimes. So clearly it isn't only humans who would benefit from this if pack behavior were the only motivation, but as far as we can tell we're the only ones who have evolved the brains to do it. Certainly we've never seen monkeys praying (as far as we know). Furthermore, I don't know to what degree being a leader requires empathy- rather, it seems to require a certain level of sociopathy- indeed, the inability to feel empathy. This, to me, indicates that manipulation does not require the same sense of putting oneself in the shoes of another that religion does. Thoughts?

[josenritno]

Two things I have to say here- One is that I would say that any predator benifits from what you might call empathy. What makes humans different from dogs and apes is that they have been removed from a hunting society. So dogs and apes don't pray because they still rely on empathy for their food. Their empathy has something to do.

So in some ways one could sum up this conversation by saying that religion is the result of idle empathy. I do know that dogs have empathy. That is obvious to any dog owner. So here's a question. Since the domestication of dogs, what is a dog's empathy doing? Maybe dogs have a secret religion. Maybe they do pray, but we can't tell because they don't put their paws together. Or more insterestingly, perhaps dogs have put their empathy to use in worshipping humans. One could argue that a dog who has more empathy can sense when their owner is in distress and therefore have an evolutionary advantage over a less sensitive domestic dog.
What about cats then? They don't seem to benifit from any possible sense of empathy. Do they have gods? Maybe they never developed empathy so they worship themselves.

Alright, cats aside, I think this idea of idle empathy giving rise to religion is a good idea. Now if we put our empathy back to use, will religion go away?