now that i am more calm....
some laughs.
from chad ford's insider on espn.com
Is Stephon Marbury a loser?
Let's just get it out on the table now, because
Tuesday night, after Steve Nash and the Suns showed up
at Madison Square Garden and defeated the Knicks
133-118, this debate is going to happen … again.
The perception is that Tuesday's matchup represents
the tale of two point guards.
The Suns are led by the NBA's most selfless point
guard - a guy who leads the league in assists and only
takes shots when there's no one on the floor with a
better one.
Steve Nash (left), Stephon Marbury
In 1995, Nash (left) helped Santa Clara to victory
over Marbury's Georgia Tech.
The Knicks are led by the NBA's self-proclaimed best
point guard - a guy who fills up a stat sheet
everywhere but where it counts: in the victory column.
But is the perception rooted in fact? Marbury has been
one of the most consistent and productive players in
the NBA the past seven years. Is he really to blame?
The debate about Marbury and the "L-word" will
continue to rage in Minneapolis, East Rutherford,
N.J., Phoenix, New York City and any of his other
potential NBA stops until a Marbury-led team either
wins more than 50 games and a playoff series (or two)
or falls apart after he leaves.
Unfortunately for Steph, a 50-victory season and
sustained playoff success have not been hallmarks of
his seven-year career.
The tale of the tape is tough to ignore. Marbury has
never led a team to more than 45 victories in a season
or a playoff series victory. The other side of the
coin is even more unsavory.
Every team Stephon has played for has gone on to
enormous success the season after he left the team.
Last season's Suns were 12-27 when Marbury left the
team. This year, their record is 33-6 when Nash is in
the starting lineup.
Even his stint as the starting point guard on Team USA
in the 2004 Athens Olympics ended in disaster.
Maybe that's why he created such a stir earlier in the
month when he proclaimed himself the best point guard
in the NBA.
With the exception of his mother, his groupies over at
Slam magazine and Knicks president Isiah Thomas, he
doesn't have a helluva lot of support for his
proclamation.
Everyone from his former teammates in Phoenix to his
current head coach on the Knicks, Herb Williams,
concedes Nash is the best point guard in the league
right now.
"He can get in the paint; he's real crafty with the
ball; he finds their 3-point shooters," Williams said
of Nash. "Without him, that show doesn't run."
"[Nash's] getting everyone the ball. Everyone loves a
teammate that gets you the ball in a position to
score," Shawn Marion, Marbury's former teammate, told
Insider earlier this month when comparing Nash and
Marbury. "Last year we had so many guys who could
score, yet our point guard was taking a lot of the
shots. That's the difference."
Suns center Amare Stoudemire put it more succinctly.
"Nash creates opportunities to get easy baskets. The
game of basketball isn't easy. But he helps make it
easy. ... That's what real point guards do."
Marbury claims the criticism doesn't sting. Maybe it
shouldn't. Other top players like Grant Hill, Elton
Brand and Andre Miller have never won a playoff
series. Until last spring, the league's MVP, Kevin
Garnett, had not gotten out of the first round. None
of them have taken the beating Marbury has.
Marbury has consistently ranked as one of the top four
or five point guards in the NBA every year. Even when
using more sophisticated statistical tools like
plus/minus and player efficiency ratings, Marbury's
career, on paper, has been a success. He is one of the
best scorers in the league, can get to the basket
whenever he wants, creates numerous shots for himself
and his teammates, never misses a game and he's fun to
watch.
He even has rational explanations for the failure of
his teams. Every team he's played for has sustained
substantial injuries that have contributed to the
team's woes. Could the lack of a supporting cast be
the real reason for his failure?
"I've always been 'team[-oriented],' " Marbury said
earlier this month.
"I've just got players [now] that can finish - it's
not just myself making plays. It's totally different
when Jason Kidd was playing with Kenyon Martin, as
opposed to the guys that he's playing with now. It
makes the game totally different. You can't be as
effective.
Stephon Marbury
Point Guard
New York Knicks
Profile
2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
40 20.7 3.0 8.5 .462 .846
"Myself, with me being in the situation that I'm in
right now, that Isiah has put me in, where he's [put]
guys around me that can really play."
However, if Marbury is such a good player and is
finally surrounded guys who "can really play," why are
the Knicks so bad?
Despite another season of all-star type numbers for
Stephon (he ranks third in the NBA in assists with 8.5
per game before Tuesday's loss to the Suns), the
Knicks have now lost 11 of their last 12 and are
embarking on a brutal Western Conference road stretch
in their schedule that could leave them with a 2-20
mark from the start of January through mid-February.
"Right now, it's garbage, the way we've played,"
Marbury told reporters Monday. "It's amazing how
you're judged. If you win a championship, it's not
you, it's the team. When you're losing, it's you. You
really can't win either way."
If point guards are supposed to elevate the team, make
an offense flow and lead the team to victory, the
Knicks' rebuilding plan might be in serious trouble.
Steve Nash
Point Guard
Phoenix Suns
Profile
2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
39 15.7 3.1 10.9 .519 .916
Why? Because Stephon is the Knicks' rebuilding plan.
"You take him away, what's left?" coach Williams said
on Monday.
Knicks president Isiah Thomas sees himself in Stephon.
Marbury sells tickets, plays with a flair and few
guards in the league can rack up his numbers or match
his durability.
That's why in the hundreds of trade conversations
Thomas has had since bringing Marbury on board last
winter, and the countless blueprints the Knicks have
agonized over to rebuild the team, the idea of trading
Marbury has never grown any legs.
Ousted coach Lenny Wilkens had many faults. He paid
almost no attention to defense. He was quiet,
mild-mannered, affable and didn't motivate
millionaires the way he should have. But according to
a league source, it was when he approached Thomas with
the idea that Marbury might be the guy who needs to go
that Wilkens - who "resigned" Jan. 22 - finally was
shown the door.
Talk of Phil Jackson or Larry Brown coaching the
Knicks is ultimately absurd. Neither has much of a
tolerance for players like Marbury. As coach of the
Lakers, Jackson couldn't stand Kobe Bryant, and Kobe
was winning titles. Brown could never totally
reconcile with Allen Iverson, despite the fact The
Answer actually got the 76ers to the NBA Finals. If he
insists on rebuilding around Marbury, Isiah doesn't
have much wiggle room to fix the Knicks.
Stephon Marbury, Lenny Wilkens
The Knicks' insistence on building around Marbury
(left) pushed Wilkens out of the picture.
In the past six weeks, Isiah has focused on making
more changes to Marbury's supporting cast. Penny
Hardaway, Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas are the latest
Knicks rumored to be out the door. Isiah has been
working frantically the last month to package them in
a trade for another scorer. The latest has him
reportedly offering Hardaway and Kurt Thomas to the
Raptors for Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall.
It's just one of a hundred rumors that has made its
way out of New York the past month as Thomas works the
phones in a twisted game of musical chairs with bad
contracts and flawed players.
The solutions Isiah is pursuing don't address the core
of the problem in New York. Coaches don't work the
phones and sign the checks. Role players don't run the
team.
Isiah rightly believes that players are ultimately
judged by winning.
"At the end of [Marbury's] career, you're judged by
the rings on your finger," Thomas said last season.
"Fortunately enough for him, he's been man enough to
accept the challenge and responsibility to go for it,
and try to achieve it. There are a lot of players that
have run from that responsibility."
Marbury either has to figure out how to use his
special talents to win, or Isiah has to surround him
with players whose talents mesh better with Stephon's.
Neither is happening in New York right now.
Marbury and the GMs who have tried to build teams
around him haven't solved the mystery. Call him
selfish. Blame it on bad karma. There are enough
excuses to go around.
Just about everywhere Marbury has played, he's been
the best player on his team. But until Marbury figures
out how to get some of that talent to rub off on his
teammates or Isiah finds him teammates whose winning
attitude is contagious, the Knicks are going nowhere.
Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
from chad ford's insider on espn.com
Is Stephon Marbury a loser?
Let's just get it out on the table now, because
Tuesday night, after Steve Nash and the Suns showed up
at Madison Square Garden and defeated the Knicks
133-118, this debate is going to happen … again.
The perception is that Tuesday's matchup represents
the tale of two point guards.
The Suns are led by the NBA's most selfless point
guard - a guy who leads the league in assists and only
takes shots when there's no one on the floor with a
better one.
Steve Nash (left), Stephon Marbury
In 1995, Nash (left) helped Santa Clara to victory
over Marbury's Georgia Tech.
The Knicks are led by the NBA's self-proclaimed best
point guard - a guy who fills up a stat sheet
everywhere but where it counts: in the victory column.
But is the perception rooted in fact? Marbury has been
one of the most consistent and productive players in
the NBA the past seven years. Is he really to blame?
The debate about Marbury and the "L-word" will
continue to rage in Minneapolis, East Rutherford,
N.J., Phoenix, New York City and any of his other
potential NBA stops until a Marbury-led team either
wins more than 50 games and a playoff series (or two)
or falls apart after he leaves.
Unfortunately for Steph, a 50-victory season and
sustained playoff success have not been hallmarks of
his seven-year career.
The tale of the tape is tough to ignore. Marbury has
never led a team to more than 45 victories in a season
or a playoff series victory. The other side of the
coin is even more unsavory.
Every team Stephon has played for has gone on to
enormous success the season after he left the team.
Last season's Suns were 12-27 when Marbury left the
team. This year, their record is 33-6 when Nash is in
the starting lineup.
Even his stint as the starting point guard on Team USA
in the 2004 Athens Olympics ended in disaster.
Maybe that's why he created such a stir earlier in the
month when he proclaimed himself the best point guard
in the NBA.
With the exception of his mother, his groupies over at
Slam magazine and Knicks president Isiah Thomas, he
doesn't have a helluva lot of support for his
proclamation.
Everyone from his former teammates in Phoenix to his
current head coach on the Knicks, Herb Williams,
concedes Nash is the best point guard in the league
right now.
"He can get in the paint; he's real crafty with the
ball; he finds their 3-point shooters," Williams said
of Nash. "Without him, that show doesn't run."
"[Nash's] getting everyone the ball. Everyone loves a
teammate that gets you the ball in a position to
score," Shawn Marion, Marbury's former teammate, told
Insider earlier this month when comparing Nash and
Marbury. "Last year we had so many guys who could
score, yet our point guard was taking a lot of the
shots. That's the difference."
Suns center Amare Stoudemire put it more succinctly.
"Nash creates opportunities to get easy baskets. The
game of basketball isn't easy. But he helps make it
easy. ... That's what real point guards do."
Marbury claims the criticism doesn't sting. Maybe it
shouldn't. Other top players like Grant Hill, Elton
Brand and Andre Miller have never won a playoff
series. Until last spring, the league's MVP, Kevin
Garnett, had not gotten out of the first round. None
of them have taken the beating Marbury has.
Marbury has consistently ranked as one of the top four
or five point guards in the NBA every year. Even when
using more sophisticated statistical tools like
plus/minus and player efficiency ratings, Marbury's
career, on paper, has been a success. He is one of the
best scorers in the league, can get to the basket
whenever he wants, creates numerous shots for himself
and his teammates, never misses a game and he's fun to
watch.
He even has rational explanations for the failure of
his teams. Every team he's played for has sustained
substantial injuries that have contributed to the
team's woes. Could the lack of a supporting cast be
the real reason for his failure?
"I've always been 'team[-oriented],' " Marbury said
earlier this month.
"I've just got players [now] that can finish - it's
not just myself making plays. It's totally different
when Jason Kidd was playing with Kenyon Martin, as
opposed to the guys that he's playing with now. It
makes the game totally different. You can't be as
effective.
Stephon Marbury
Point Guard
New York Knicks
Profile
2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
40 20.7 3.0 8.5 .462 .846
"Myself, with me being in the situation that I'm in
right now, that Isiah has put me in, where he's [put]
guys around me that can really play."
However, if Marbury is such a good player and is
finally surrounded guys who "can really play," why are
the Knicks so bad?
Despite another season of all-star type numbers for
Stephon (he ranks third in the NBA in assists with 8.5
per game before Tuesday's loss to the Suns), the
Knicks have now lost 11 of their last 12 and are
embarking on a brutal Western Conference road stretch
in their schedule that could leave them with a 2-20
mark from the start of January through mid-February.
"Right now, it's garbage, the way we've played,"
Marbury told reporters Monday. "It's amazing how
you're judged. If you win a championship, it's not
you, it's the team. When you're losing, it's you. You
really can't win either way."
If point guards are supposed to elevate the team, make
an offense flow and lead the team to victory, the
Knicks' rebuilding plan might be in serious trouble.
Steve Nash
Point Guard
Phoenix Suns
Profile
2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
39 15.7 3.1 10.9 .519 .916
Why? Because Stephon is the Knicks' rebuilding plan.
"You take him away, what's left?" coach Williams said
on Monday.
Knicks president Isiah Thomas sees himself in Stephon.
Marbury sells tickets, plays with a flair and few
guards in the league can rack up his numbers or match
his durability.
That's why in the hundreds of trade conversations
Thomas has had since bringing Marbury on board last
winter, and the countless blueprints the Knicks have
agonized over to rebuild the team, the idea of trading
Marbury has never grown any legs.
Ousted coach Lenny Wilkens had many faults. He paid
almost no attention to defense. He was quiet,
mild-mannered, affable and didn't motivate
millionaires the way he should have. But according to
a league source, it was when he approached Thomas with
the idea that Marbury might be the guy who needs to go
that Wilkens - who "resigned" Jan. 22 - finally was
shown the door.
Talk of Phil Jackson or Larry Brown coaching the
Knicks is ultimately absurd. Neither has much of a
tolerance for players like Marbury. As coach of the
Lakers, Jackson couldn't stand Kobe Bryant, and Kobe
was winning titles. Brown could never totally
reconcile with Allen Iverson, despite the fact The
Answer actually got the 76ers to the NBA Finals. If he
insists on rebuilding around Marbury, Isiah doesn't
have much wiggle room to fix the Knicks.
Stephon Marbury, Lenny Wilkens
The Knicks' insistence on building around Marbury
(left) pushed Wilkens out of the picture.
In the past six weeks, Isiah has focused on making
more changes to Marbury's supporting cast. Penny
Hardaway, Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas are the latest
Knicks rumored to be out the door. Isiah has been
working frantically the last month to package them in
a trade for another scorer. The latest has him
reportedly offering Hardaway and Kurt Thomas to the
Raptors for Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall.
It's just one of a hundred rumors that has made its
way out of New York the past month as Thomas works the
phones in a twisted game of musical chairs with bad
contracts and flawed players.
The solutions Isiah is pursuing don't address the core
of the problem in New York. Coaches don't work the
phones and sign the checks. Role players don't run the
team.
Isiah rightly believes that players are ultimately
judged by winning.
"At the end of [Marbury's] career, you're judged by
the rings on your finger," Thomas said last season.
"Fortunately enough for him, he's been man enough to
accept the challenge and responsibility to go for it,
and try to achieve it. There are a lot of players that
have run from that responsibility."
Marbury either has to figure out how to use his
special talents to win, or Isiah has to surround him
with players whose talents mesh better with Stephon's.
Neither is happening in New York right now.
Marbury and the GMs who have tried to build teams
around him haven't solved the mystery. Call him
selfish. Blame it on bad karma. There are enough
excuses to go around.
Just about everywhere Marbury has played, he's been
the best player on his team. But until Marbury figures
out how to get some of that talent to rub off on his
teammates or Isiah finds him teammates whose winning
attitude is contagious, the Knicks are going nowhere.
Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.