Jill, while I certainly don't think anyone should ever be thrown off a flight due to weight (and I don't know about the Kevin Smith story yet), there IS another side to this. Chairs on conveyances are a certain size and they are designed for people of a certain size. If someone is VASTLY larger than that size, it is not fair to ask another person to sit next to them as they will be taking up more than their allotted space. If this means they must buy two tickets, then that is what it means.
I do not condone the public way the man in your story asked to be moved, but I can sympathize with him if the woman was really THAT big. (If not then he was just being an asshole). But I will say that I also have asked to be moved on a train one time, when the man seated next to where they intended to put me was so large that it really wasn't fair to either of us for me to be there. Of course I did that discretely, but I believe it was the right thing to do. Fat people should not be discriminated against (unless there is some safety issue) but neither should others have to suffer due to a fat person's extra size. The times when these things are an issue is pretty rare, but it does happen.
Airlines keep making their seats smaller to accommodate more passengers. Some airlines have done this and then instituted rules like Southwest's. It's moving the goalposts, and it's wrong. Moreover, I'm less bothered by someone's fat than their very broad shoulders, or phantom giant penis and testicles that require their legs to be splayed into my seat area. If we're going to go after one thing, let's go after them all.
As to Kevin Smith's story: He sat in the seat with both armrests down, and his belt buckled without an extender. Even by SWA's rules, he shouldn't have been removed from the flight. Further, there was apparently a man on that same flight who was "that large" who wasn't removed. It was arbitrary, and it was wrong.
Also, as to the case on my flight:
1) She was not "that" fat.
2) He was not that broad-shouldered.
I really think he was a cranky and entitled man. Also, she was a WOC, and I would be unsurprised if that came into his mental calculus. However, that isn't relevant here, so I didn't put it in the OP.
Also, if she had been "that" fat, he could have had the decency to wait until we were completely boarded or even in the air before switching seats. There are a number of more polite ways he could have dealt with the situation. He was, as you eventually offered, an asshole.
I agree completely with you about the guy on your flight. I mean if there was space, EVERYONE would be more comfortable if he moved, but he could have just done that. He didn't need to make big deal of it.
As for KS, if he's got the armrests down, then I don't see the problem. That was wrong. I wonder why the attendant bothered to mess with him when there was another similar sized person there.
As far as seat size, do you have proof on that? That sounds like a popular myth, but frankly I don't see how they can increase capacity by making seats smaller. Are they going add another seat per row? I don't see how that is possible. Usually they increase capacity by putting the rows closer together. I've been on planes where the seats were so close they couldn't recline, but I've never seen extra seats across.
The other thing is that weight matters on planes. When they plan for the number of seats they plan for an average weight per seat. Now granted that planned weight should be generous, but of course it DOES affect the bottom line. At SOME point it is not unreasonable to say if you use more than a single person's weight allotment, then you have to pay for 2 seats. When I send a package I'm charged by weight, the same principle applies to passengers. Sure you round it so that you can offer a fixed price but at some point that math breaks down. I'm not in any way suggesting that discrimination against fat people is ok. I isn't. I'm just saying that at some point making someone pay for the extra resources their extra-large body is using is not discrimination. Yes I grant you there is a potentially slippery slope there, but there is also a legitimate argument.
I am not at all an expert in airplane design, but from what I can tell, brief internet research seems to indicate that the width of seats has historically remained a consistent 17-18.5 inches. Seat pitch, i.e. the distance between seats, is what has actually decreased over time. Even though legroom is something that most of us are concerned about when flying (though my shortness means it's fortunately something of a non-issue for me), I think seat width is the more salient issue here.
While I'm as annoyed as you by men who feel the need to spread their legs as wide as possible, I do think that example is something of a canard, as such behavior is voluntary. This of course doesn't excuse the puerile behavior of the guy on your plane, or the pilot's overreaction in Kevin Smith's case. It would be reprehensible regardless of the size of the woman he refused to sit next to.
Unfortunately, what that kind of nasty behavior does is poison the discussion so that people can't have an honest discussion about weight without it devolving into an offensively personal and moral one. The result is a situation where you have asshats like the one you encountered who can't distinguish between their value-based disgust with anybody larger then they are with individuals who are genuinely so overweight that they really do compromise the comfort and safety of their neighbors.
As for forcing overweight individuals to pay for two seats or first class, my tentative opinion is that the airlines are justified so long as they are providing suitable accommodation rather than denying service. An outright ban would be clearly discriminatory. The problem, however, is that you create a two-tiered payment system in which most passengers fly at a flat rate, but others are involuntarily priced according to a function of their weight. That can quite easily be construed as discriminatory. I'm not sure what the right answer is.
sooo, if a fat person wants enough space they should buy an extra seat or a first class ticket, but if an average size person wants enough space they should expect someone else to buy a second ticker or a first class ticket? That seems kinda silly. If you're gonna take the chance of buying the cheap seats then don't be surprised if you don't have a lot of space. If you're worried some fat person is going to be too close to you, then pay extra yourself.
at least, that's how I see it.
sorry, I'm 300lbs, and as much as I'd like to feel apologetic for existing in someone's space. I'm not. If I have to deal with things I don't like in my space (BO, too much perfume, babies, etc...), then people can deal with our shoulders/thighs touching. Also I've spent way too much of my life doing that fat squeeze thing that leaves me with sore muscles in my back and a crimped neck because I felt bad that I could be impinging on someone, which incidentally left me with a pulled muscle after my trip to NOLA.
I can't really follow your argument. I think I would say yes. If I weigh 200 lbs, and someone else weighs 400 lbs, it makes perfect sense to me that they should pay double. They are TWICE as large. Everyone paying the same is predicated on the idea that people are generally ROUGHLY the same size. 50 or 60 pounds, even 100 lbs either way, no big deal. But past a certain point, YES, someone who is two big to fit in a coach seat SHOULD fly first class or by 2 seats. I don't see how that is unfair in the slightest. I can't speak about you personally, since I don't know you. Weight itself is not everything. I don't think you should be penalized JUST because you weigh 300 lbs. If you can fit into a coach seat, ok by me. But what I'm saying is that the principle of equality of passengers does not go on for ever. At the extreme ends there needs to be some kind of adjustment. Just as a baby on a lap travels free or cheaper (albeit unsafely) a person who needs more than one seat should pay more. It is as simple as that.
I do not condone the public way the man in your story asked to be moved, but I can sympathize with him if the woman was really THAT big. (If not then he was just being an asshole). But I will say that I also have asked to be moved on a train one time, when the man seated next to where they intended to put me was so large that it really wasn't fair to either of us for me to be there. Of course I did that discretely, but I believe it was the right thing to do. Fat people should not be discriminated against (unless there is some safety issue) but neither should others have to suffer due to a fat person's extra size. The times when these things are an issue is pretty rare, but it does happen.
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As to Kevin Smith's story: He sat in the seat with both armrests down, and his belt buckled without an extender. Even by SWA's rules, he shouldn't have been removed from the flight. Further, there was apparently a man on that same flight who was "that large" who wasn't removed. It was arbitrary, and it was wrong.
Also, as to the case on my flight:
1) She was not "that" fat.
2) He was not that broad-shouldered.
I really think he was a cranky and entitled man. Also, she was a WOC, and I would be unsurprised if that came into his mental calculus. However, that isn't relevant here, so I didn't put it in the OP.
Also, if she had been "that" fat, he could have had the decency to wait until we were completely boarded or even in the air before switching seats. There are a number of more polite ways he could have dealt with the situation. He was, as you eventually offered, an asshole.
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As for KS, if he's got the armrests down, then I don't see the problem. That was wrong. I wonder why the attendant bothered to mess with him when there was another similar sized person there.
As far as seat size, do you have proof on that? That sounds like a popular myth, but frankly I don't see how they can increase capacity by making seats smaller. Are they going add another seat per row? I don't see how that is possible. Usually they increase capacity by putting the rows closer together. I've been on planes where the seats were so close they couldn't recline, but I've never seen extra seats across.
The other thing is that weight matters on planes. When they plan for the number of seats they plan for an average weight per seat. Now granted that planned weight should be generous, but of course it DOES affect the bottom line. At SOME point it is not unreasonable to say if you use more than a single person's weight allotment, then you have to pay for 2 seats. When I send a package I'm charged by weight, the same principle applies to passengers. Sure you round it so that you can offer a fixed price but at some point that math breaks down. I'm not in any way suggesting that discrimination against fat people is ok. I isn't. I'm just saying that at some point making someone pay for the extra resources their extra-large body is using is not discrimination. Yes I grant you there is a potentially slippery slope there, but there is also a legitimate argument.
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While I'm as annoyed as you by men who feel the need to spread their legs as wide as possible, I do think that example is something of a canard, as such behavior is voluntary. This of course doesn't excuse the puerile behavior of the guy on your plane, or the pilot's overreaction in Kevin Smith's case. It would be reprehensible regardless of the size of the woman he refused to sit next to.
Unfortunately, what that kind of nasty behavior does is poison the discussion so that people can't have an honest discussion about weight without it devolving into an offensively personal and moral one. The result is a situation where you have asshats like the one you encountered who can't distinguish between their value-based disgust with anybody larger then they are with individuals who are genuinely so overweight that they really do compromise the comfort and safety of their neighbors.
As for forcing overweight individuals to pay for two seats or first class, my tentative opinion is that the airlines are justified so long as they are providing suitable accommodation rather than denying service. An outright ban would be clearly discriminatory. The problem, however, is that you create a two-tiered payment system in which most passengers fly at a flat rate, but others are involuntarily priced according to a function of their weight. That can quite easily be construed as discriminatory. I'm not sure what the right answer is.
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at least, that's how I see it.
sorry, I'm 300lbs, and as much as I'd like to feel apologetic for existing in someone's space. I'm not. If I have to deal with things I don't like in my space (BO, too much perfume, babies, etc...), then people can deal with our shoulders/thighs touching. Also I've spent way too much of my life doing that fat squeeze thing that leaves me with sore muscles in my back and a crimped neck because I felt bad that I could be impinging on someone, which incidentally left me with a pulled muscle after my trip to NOLA.
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