One More Post About Warnings
This debate is mostly hypothetical for me on both sides. I've never written anything with consent issues. If I wrote non-con, I'd warn for it, but that's really unlikely to ever happen. I write angst and I warn for that, but I mostly consider it a helpful genre label. On the other hand, I don't have triggers. I do have quite a few squicks; I appreciate when they're warned for. My overactive embarrassment squick that has me constantly back-buttoning in discomfort is very rarely warned for. That's okay because it's a squick and I can hit the backbutton. No harm, no foul. I also have kinks. I appreciate when they're "warned" for too so I know how to find them.
This debate is not about my kinks or my squicks or anyone else's kinks or squicks. It's about triggers and very real pain. I wasn't going to post about this again, but I keep seeing the people for whom the stakes in this debate are highest (that is, people with triggers) making very personal public statements about past trauma to try to make a point about how, hey, warning for content that is guaranteed to be triggery would really help them protect themselves.
So I have one more thing to say and because this debate is largely hypothetical for me, I don't have to risk ripping myself open to do it. This post costs me nothing. That's a privilege.
I've seen a lot of people say that fandom is an adult space. I agree that it is. That doesn't mean there aren't young people here, but in general, the way fandom behaves, yes. It's an adult space. I don't think that means we're all in this for ourselves or that we don't owe each other anything ever. I think it means we're grownups who understand the concepts of context and nuance. Every fandom is not the same. Every *canon* is not the same. Sometimes different fandoms do have different standards. Probably people in different fandoms sometimes expect different things from their fic because they expect different things from their source text. In a canon with a lot of extreme violence you could probably be a little laxer on the warnings for violence than you would be in a canon that has none. Maybe you warn anyway. In some fannish circles that's standard. But maybe you don't and you rely on your audience's knowledge of the source. Maybe that's what that particular fandom does. Maybe that's a judgment call because sometimes there is context. Also, sometimes people will disagree with you or think that you made the wrong judgment call. This is part of being a grownup and part of a community and interacting in the world.
This debate is not about giving a laundry list of every potentially troubling thing in every story you write. No one has said that. This debate is about warning for rape - and things on the level of rape, including child-abuse and self-injury, but people are talking about things that are guaranteed triggers, things that we *know* are guaranteed triggers. No one is talking about squicks or asking for warnings for the color orange or ooc apple consumption or whatever the other straw-men arguments were.
Even with regard to the major triggers, it's not always going to be perfectly cut and dried. (See also: the fic that started this iteration of this debate to begin with). No one is saying you can't make mistakes; no one is saying you'll be shunned if you do. People make mistakes all the time. That is also part of being part of a community and interacting in the world.
I realize that in the above, I'm assuming sympathy to the pro-warning position because that's where I am on this. In most cases, there *are* some standard warnings and genre labels that are widely used. (Also, I think warnings and genre labels should not necessarily be conflated, but that's slightly off topic here). In some cases people choose not to warn. Since in a lot of cases the absence of a warning *does* mean that there's nothing to warn for, I think that saying "I don't warn" seems like a simple solution, but I get that what's going on here is not so much that as that people are feeling pressured and harassed and dismissed - or they feel that their work is being dismissed.
Which brings me to the one argument I've seen going around on the pro-warning side (though not *only* on that side, which I find a little baffling) that's singularly unhelpful.
Guys, if fan fic is important enough for us to care this much about it and for us to take it this seriously, then it's important enough to be taken seriously. Fan fic can be art. It can be literature. Some of it is bad, sure. Some published writing is also bad. Being dismissive of what we do here while emphasizing the community aspect of fandom is counter-intuitive. It's not "just" fan fic. It's not categorically less-than. It's as much "real" writing as anything else is. I think even in this debate - maybe *especially* in this debate, where we're emphasizing what this community is and means - that's important to acknowledge.
I've read fic that's awful and fic that was mediocre and fic that I was largely just using to punch my own buttons. I've also read fic that's way better than some published novels, and I've read fic that I would absolutely hold up as examples of literature.
This isn't about whether or not fic is art. It's about context again, and the context in which fan works are produced is important. We are a community here, like it or not. (And yes, we are. I keep seeing arguments that fandom isn't a community. WTF is it then?) We're not a homogeneous one by any means. Fandom is not a "safe space." There will never be a complete fannish consensus (because fandoms are different and we're not all here for the same reason and sometimes there is context), but we do have to live with each other.
I do not believe that anyone is responsible for anyone else's decisions or mental health. I also don't believe that's what this conversation is about at all. I really think it's mostly about trying to be sensitive to the experiences of people - yes, some of them strangers - who we are sharing space with.
Fandom is chaotic. There really are no fandom police. Yes, sometimes there is peer pressure, but no one is *obligated* to do anything at all. You are completely entitled to do whatever you want in your own space; no one is going to stop you. I don't actually believe anyone is being intentionally malicious here. However, I am, in turn, entitled to believe that choosing not to warn for rape* is callous and insensitive.
*(However you want to do it. Saying, "non-con" is obviously a warning, but saying "I don't warn" is also a warning. Giving some details on the reasons behind an NC-17 rating is a warning. Hell, saying "This BtVS fic about Buffy takes place immediately post-'Seeing Red'" is probably a warning because sometimes there is context. We are adults here. People are just asking for a little information to help them make an educated decision. That's all).
Comment here or at Dreamwidth. If you want to link, please link the DW post.
This debate is not about my kinks or my squicks or anyone else's kinks or squicks. It's about triggers and very real pain. I wasn't going to post about this again, but I keep seeing the people for whom the stakes in this debate are highest (that is, people with triggers) making very personal public statements about past trauma to try to make a point about how, hey, warning for content that is guaranteed to be triggery would really help them protect themselves.
So I have one more thing to say and because this debate is largely hypothetical for me, I don't have to risk ripping myself open to do it. This post costs me nothing. That's a privilege.
I've seen a lot of people say that fandom is an adult space. I agree that it is. That doesn't mean there aren't young people here, but in general, the way fandom behaves, yes. It's an adult space. I don't think that means we're all in this for ourselves or that we don't owe each other anything ever. I think it means we're grownups who understand the concepts of context and nuance. Every fandom is not the same. Every *canon* is not the same. Sometimes different fandoms do have different standards. Probably people in different fandoms sometimes expect different things from their fic because they expect different things from their source text. In a canon with a lot of extreme violence you could probably be a little laxer on the warnings for violence than you would be in a canon that has none. Maybe you warn anyway. In some fannish circles that's standard. But maybe you don't and you rely on your audience's knowledge of the source. Maybe that's what that particular fandom does. Maybe that's a judgment call because sometimes there is context. Also, sometimes people will disagree with you or think that you made the wrong judgment call. This is part of being a grownup and part of a community and interacting in the world.
This debate is not about giving a laundry list of every potentially troubling thing in every story you write. No one has said that. This debate is about warning for rape - and things on the level of rape, including child-abuse and self-injury, but people are talking about things that are guaranteed triggers, things that we *know* are guaranteed triggers. No one is talking about squicks or asking for warnings for the color orange or ooc apple consumption or whatever the other straw-men arguments were.
Even with regard to the major triggers, it's not always going to be perfectly cut and dried. (See also: the fic that started this iteration of this debate to begin with). No one is saying you can't make mistakes; no one is saying you'll be shunned if you do. People make mistakes all the time. That is also part of being part of a community and interacting in the world.
I realize that in the above, I'm assuming sympathy to the pro-warning position because that's where I am on this. In most cases, there *are* some standard warnings and genre labels that are widely used. (Also, I think warnings and genre labels should not necessarily be conflated, but that's slightly off topic here). In some cases people choose not to warn. Since in a lot of cases the absence of a warning *does* mean that there's nothing to warn for, I think that saying "I don't warn" seems like a simple solution, but I get that what's going on here is not so much that as that people are feeling pressured and harassed and dismissed - or they feel that their work is being dismissed.
Which brings me to the one argument I've seen going around on the pro-warning side (though not *only* on that side, which I find a little baffling) that's singularly unhelpful.
Guys, if fan fic is important enough for us to care this much about it and for us to take it this seriously, then it's important enough to be taken seriously. Fan fic can be art. It can be literature. Some of it is bad, sure. Some published writing is also bad. Being dismissive of what we do here while emphasizing the community aspect of fandom is counter-intuitive. It's not "just" fan fic. It's not categorically less-than. It's as much "real" writing as anything else is. I think even in this debate - maybe *especially* in this debate, where we're emphasizing what this community is and means - that's important to acknowledge.
I've read fic that's awful and fic that was mediocre and fic that I was largely just using to punch my own buttons. I've also read fic that's way better than some published novels, and I've read fic that I would absolutely hold up as examples of literature.
This isn't about whether or not fic is art. It's about context again, and the context in which fan works are produced is important. We are a community here, like it or not. (And yes, we are. I keep seeing arguments that fandom isn't a community. WTF is it then?) We're not a homogeneous one by any means. Fandom is not a "safe space." There will never be a complete fannish consensus (because fandoms are different and we're not all here for the same reason and sometimes there is context), but we do have to live with each other.
I do not believe that anyone is responsible for anyone else's decisions or mental health. I also don't believe that's what this conversation is about at all. I really think it's mostly about trying to be sensitive to the experiences of people - yes, some of them strangers - who we are sharing space with.
Fandom is chaotic. There really are no fandom police. Yes, sometimes there is peer pressure, but no one is *obligated* to do anything at all. You are completely entitled to do whatever you want in your own space; no one is going to stop you. I don't actually believe anyone is being intentionally malicious here. However, I am, in turn, entitled to believe that choosing not to warn for rape* is callous and insensitive.
*(However you want to do it. Saying, "non-con" is obviously a warning, but saying "I don't warn" is also a warning. Giving some details on the reasons behind an NC-17 rating is a warning. Hell, saying "This BtVS fic about Buffy takes place immediately post-'Seeing Red'" is probably a warning because sometimes there is context. We are adults here. People are just asking for a little information to help them make an educated decision. That's all).
Comment here or at Dreamwidth. If you want to link, please link the DW post.