Meme answers

[redbrickrose]

lafemmedarla asked about Lindsey/Eve.

I . . . ummm . . . love Lindsey/Eve. (I'm so ashamed). Not because of what they are, but because of what they should be. I have this thing about evil-in-love (or even morally-ambiguous-in-love) I like it when characters are shades of gray and clever and manipulative and they run around being clever and manipulative and

Comments

[inlovewithnight]

::nod:: Thanks for the answer. It was very complete and thoughtful, IMO. No footnotes and citing-from-the-text required. ;)

It's interesting to see how people mesh the two worldviews in crossovers, though I admit I haven't read all that many.

[redbrickrose]

You're welcome! *g* I think there's more to be said, especially about father-figures, but I would probably have to think more first.

Crossovers are hard, mainly because we've got canonical vampires on SPN and they are NOT Buffyverse vampires. I've read some crossovers I've loved anyway, though. The mythology stuff tends to get hand-waved a bit, but that doesn't really bother me all that much.

[mischiefmydear]

There always seems to be an abandonment of the biological father figure to be replaced by a symbolic father figure: Angelus to Dru and Spike, arguably later to Faith (? Redemptive Father? God-like Father?); Giles to Buffy and all of the Scooby's. Both Buffy and Angel have strained relations with their biological fathers (I think Spike did, too? We never see Dru's mother, either). Heck, even Angel theoretically abandons Connor, if only to provide him with a better past and future.

It would support your theory about the constructed family (which I think might make commentary on modern society, as constructed families often have more importance than biological anymore), but I would wonder what it may be saying about the necessity of a Father figure, whether in seeking one (if you're female) or becoming one (if you're male).

[redbrickrose]

Ooo. Good thoughts.

There always seems to be an abandonment of the biological father figure to be replaced by a symbolic father figure:

Huh. That's true, and it hadn't occurred to me in those terms, but that's definitely a recurring pattern.

I don't remember what the deal was with Spike's father, but I'm thinking absent or dead because he's not there in the episode where Spike turns his mother. I'd actually forgotten about Spike and his unhealthy relationship with his mother. Now, they were close. TOO close, though the incestuous overtones were definitely heightened after she was sired. (Of course, there was the bizarro Spike-Lestat parallel going on there. Which hadn't worked since s2).

I would wonder what it may be saying about the necessity of a Father figure, whether in seeking one (if you're female) or becoming one (if you're male).

That's really interesting. I'll have to think more about it.

[raincitygirl]

Awesome, thought-provoking analysis on family in BtVS/AtS and SPN. Kinda wish you'd expand on your brief FF thoughts sometime, but nonetheless a very chewy bit of meta.

[redbrickrose]

Oh, thanks. I'm glad you found it interesting.

I'd probably have to rewatch FF to go a whole lot more in-depth. I don't think there are many references to the families of Serenity's crew except for the Tams, who really seem to be an exception. Like in the Buffyverse, FF centers on a group of people who are misfits, really, and become family to each other. Those really are the dynamics that all Joss shows tend to explore. I just find River and Simon really interesting because they are so intensely devoted to each other, and they really are the only sibling we even see in any Buffyverse show, except for Buffy and Dawn. I don't really have any original thoughts on why that is, but Buffy and Dawn were devoted too, to the point where Buffy died for Dawn. Hmmmm. I read an essay once that argued that very few Jossverse characters have siblings/visible biological family because in order to explore the relationships he tends to focus on, Joss has to preclude that dynamic because it is so important that it does trump everything else. It

[raincitygirl]

I think you might be onto something there. Interesting that Dawn's advent on the scene was shortly followed by Joyce's incapacity and then death, like Joss didn't want to have more than one close famly relationship to wrangle at once. He is all about the constructed family, and you're right, maybe too much in the way of family ties would've made the Scoobies seem less important by comparison. Interesting that Buffy was prepared to sacrifice her boyfriend to save the world, but not her sister

[redbrickrose]

Yes, exactly. The family relationships are chosen.

I'd say the constructed family trope is actually more intense with Simon and River,

It's interesting that you say that. I think you're right, actually. I was using them as an exception from Joss's themes of constructed family, but I was ignoring the fact that Simon had taken on more of parental role. Of course, the big brother role is still a protective one, but I do think you've got a point there.

And you can look at SPN through that lens as well, maybe. By the point we are in canon now, they have a purely fraternal relationship, but the four year age gap when they were kids seems to have frequently left Dean in the caretaker role. Huh.

Interesting thoughts! Thanks for sharing.

[mischiefmydear]

Wesley/Lilah <3

[netweight]

When we went into hiatus in AtS 5, I came up with vague backstory for Eve because ME didn't see fit to provide us with one and it was starting to piss me off. She had struck a deal with W&H for immortality and possibly eternal youth in return for being their agent. She had lived several lives at that point, reincarnating over and over with no memory of her past lives, always bound to them. She didn't remember why she had made the deal in the first place. It was all kinda overly tragic and then jossed. I still prefer my version though

[redbrickrose]

I like your backstory a lot better too. I'm still bitter that Eve wasn't cool. Eve should have been cool.

I didn't have a conclusion either. I was just typing whatever came into my head in the hopes that I could talk it out enough to make it make sense at the end.

The Angel and Gunn thing had never occurred to me, but you're right. That really should have been explored. Huh. Yeah. Interesting.

[lizzygir3]

Thanks for the answer. True villains are never really fun when they are bad just for the sake of being bad. Even Satan, at least in most stories, has a motive for becoming evil.

I also like my villains in love with each other.

It does add an extra spicy touch. Though I think my kink is having them be in love with the heroes, I blame it on my love for messy relationships.

[redbrickrose]

Right, I don't find pure villains any more interesting than I find pure heroes. I like shades of gray and struggle.

Sorry if my answer to you seemed kind of abrupt. I was trying to tie it in with what I was saying above about the het!fic kink, and I think that really, I like my villains in love with each other because it shows a side that, in theory at least, is ambiguous because it makes them show emotion.

Though I think my kink is having them be in love with the heroes, I blame it on my love for messy relationships.

I like that too, though in that case I'm a sucker for it in slash, but I have to be invested in both characters to really go for it in het. huh. That had not occurred to me until you said that. I wonder what that means.

[lizzygir3]

I like that too, though in that case I'm a sucker for it in slash, but I have to be invested in both characters to really go for it in het. huh. That had not occurred to me until you said that. I wonder what that means.

Well if you go for it because of the messy factor as do I, maybe it has to do with the fact that slash-ships are the little bit more complicated right from the beginning because we still think of them as tabu somehow.

But if you are invested in both characters the factors that are making the relationship problematic seem more important and voila it gets more messy.

Naturally if you're attracted to good on evil (or vice versa :-)) for a totally different reason then I've got no idea.

[redbrickrose]

The messiness does appeal some, I think. Also, in a lot of cases if it's a het ship, then the villain being in love with the hero is already something being dealt with for the sake of dramatic tension. In a slash 'ship, we know that it would be dealt with in a het ship, but it isn't being dealt with in that particular way, so we have to deal with it ourselves. If, umm, that makes sense.