Or what's a beta for? And, is there a beta in your meta?

[red_satin_doll]

ETA 08/02/13: comlodge just re-stated the point in the convo thread below that I was attempting to make re: beta-readers and meta and did so better and far more concisely than I could ever hope to. I bow to her awesomeness.

I just noticed one more empty "pending" slot in the Beta catagory at the Running With Scissors Awards,  which seems odd to me.

Comments

[red_satin_doll]

I never tried to steer the plot, but I pointed out when something seemed out of context or if I couldn't picture an action sequence in my mind. We had a really good partnership while it lasted.

That's very much what I've done as a beta-reader for my friends; I let them know right up front I'm not about correcting grammar unless it's glaringly obvious even to me. But I look for the things you do - characterization, flow, readability, logical progression. I had a friend whose work I'd read and I'd ask every once in a while "How did this character get from point A to point B?" She'd say she saw it in her head, but as a reader I can't see what's in her head.

We all do that as writers, don't we? Is there such a thing as a writer who is able to reread their work and spot every error, or every place where they forgot to state something because they saw it in their head and assumed the reader would too?

comlodge just mentioned on another thread here the fact that they had a "beta" for one of their banners who spotted what was missing in the visual story. So not just writers - artists who tell a story regardless of the medium.

I don't know the exact definition of meta. (And I don't think I really enjoy it).

So you dislike all nonfiction writing about btvs (in this instance) and/or it's fandom? *pouts* That's the best definition I can come up with based on how I see the word used in this fandom. (Prior to joining fandom "meta" to me referred to a work of art or culture that is self-referential, that acknowledges itself as a created product, and acknowledges the existence of the audience.)

But in my limited knowledge, it seems like it would lose something if it was beta'ed. It seems like it needs to come unfiltered from the writer.

So you do have a definition of meta - a journal entry, an off-the-cuff or stream of consciousness observation. that's a very specific criteria. And it works fine IF that's the writer's style. It doesn't work if the author is going for something else. Meta can range from very informal and off-the-cuff to very academic and anything in between. And even the best nonfiction authors miss things and make errors just as fiction writers do.

Ex: I know with the Xander meta I wrote many months back, I cringe when I look at it now. Another eye looking it over would have been invaluable in shaping it. It never occured to me to ask anyone; now I wish I had. It's ok, but nothing I'm proud of.

Edited, Ignore earlier version of this reply, please.

[red_satin_doll]

ETA: I just hit the reply button and THEN I read comlodge's reply down thread and she's stated the heart of my argument re: meta but more succinctly and a lot better than I could. http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/20858.html?thread=466298#t466298 *bows to comlodge*

BTW - I hope I didn't offend you! You certainly didn't offend me at all & I apologize if my words came across as a bit brusque. Words on the flat screen (or page) don't always capture tone or intent. in I mentioning my own stuff, it's meant as example only. Anyhoodle...I have NO idea why I had to unscreen this to reply btw; I didn't the last time, I haven't changed my settings and I just commented on one of your posts successfully. Weird.

Sometimes I would say "how is that character suddenly sitting down? Last time I pictured him he was standing on the other side of the room"

I've had those moments. Currently I am a (sometime) Muse to my best friend and it's been less about "how did they get to point A to B?" more brainstorming on themes, plot, characterization, which is a lot of fun. If I really don't feel I can offer advice because she's written something that I can't connect with for whatever reason, she's got other people she can rely on.

I've written a couple of things before and I was pleased with them, but she was the real deal.

Know that feeling all TOO well.

And thank you for laying our your argument/opinion to me; it makes sense to me where I didn't understand before. I can respect that - not your thing. I guess it's the same idea as when I come across fics that contain ideas or tropes that don't appeal to me.? The back button IS MY FRIEND.

someone who has an opinion about the motivation of a character or the meaning of an episode

I think fiction does the same thing in a somewhat different way. Nonfiction is more "this is what I see"; fiction is more "this is what I would have liked to have seen" but that's not true in all cases.

It's not an academic endeavor for me. It's an emotional, gut level experience.

For me ithe emotional level definitely came first. And there are plenty of intellectual essays that go over my head in terms of academic language and I really can't participate. I'm not their audience in those cases. (So I tell myself, to keep my "I should be at that level" feeling of failure from taking over. *lol*) The funny thing is, some of the most intellectual/academic fandom writing to be just as emotional as any other; sometimes the author is clear about their feelings but other times the language serves as a mask, pretending to be objective. We're all fans at heart.

some truly awful fandom free-for-all's

Definitely so. people forget to be civil and respectful sometimes. Again, the back button and "agree to disagree" both come in very handy in such cases. I've slipped up a couple of times and gotten embroiled in heated arguments or said things I regretted later, almost always because emotions took over from sense. Or I've been on the receiving end of someone else's emotional issues (not fun). My Rule #1 - don't reply when I'm tired, angry, depressed, sick, in pain, etc. Rule #2 - I'm not obligated to reply esp if on hot-button issues. I have friends in this fandom I adore and we disagree on what I consider some fundamental issues and I have to ask myself, What's the point of going there? If I'm worried things will get heated and/or I know we're not going to change each other's minds, I try not to go there. I do slip up.

It should be, as you say, a stream of consciousness from the writer

Again, comlodge just said it better than I can. I'll try a better example (hopefully?) of what I mean: lostboy-lj's post "The Monomythology of Buffy" is fanart as meta. He edited it from his original version because of a point that bone_dry1013 made in the convo thread. It wasn't about changing his premise but a single detail that made that premise clearer. If Lostboy had Bonedry look at the post beforehand, might he have saved himself the trouble later? Possibly.

Re: Edited, Ignore earlier version of this reply, please.

[red_satin_doll]

Gosh, I'm trying to find where you might have said something offensive, and I can't find it. Funny though, I wrote my last response late at night, and then I wondered if I had said anything offensive.

Honestly that seems to be my M.O. esp when I don't know someone well. I say something and THEN worry I said the wrong thing or read too much into what they say. And most of the time that's not the case at all. After years online I still have a problem with sussing out "tone". I love the internet and the people I get to talk to but I also miss the face-to-face interaction.

So no worries *hugs*

I get that you are very passionate about the show. And I think that's wonderful. A passionate viewpoint would NEVER offend me.

I accept the compliment and thank you for it! (I would have said "stubborn, opinionated and occasionally tactless" but I like your version much better!)

When I first got on LJ, I thought it was going to be lots and lots of fun and we would all hold hands and talk about how much we loved the show. But there was so much more to it, both good and bad. The good part was incredibly joyful and almost the most fun possible. But I think I'm still a little traumatized by some of the bad stuff that happened.

*nods* I've experienced much the same on both ends, definitely. And screwed up royally myself.

Getting into conversation or not depends on a lot of factors. I do really enjoy conversations analyzing BUT certain conditions that tend to be in place: there are other people who I at least partially agree with and/or am probably already comfortable with (I'm learning - hah - that if everyone thinks in one way and I totally disagree - back the hell off, because I'm not going to change anyone's opinions and will probably only offend someone), the language isn't over my head or already taking an unpleasant turn. Civilized exchange is good; arguing for it's own sake is not. I don't like being patronized, talked down to or having my entire opinion dismissed out of hand.

When I first got on LJ, I thought it was going to be lots and lots of fun and we would all hold hands and talk about how much we loved the show. But there was so much more to it, both good and bad. The good part was incredibly joyful and almost the most fun possible. But I think I'm still a little traumatized by some of the bad stuff that happened.

Oh same here - see comments above.

I really think more people could stand to use the term "agree to disagree" when things get heated. In my experience it really helps folks step back, laugh a little, and let go of the need to "be right".

I find it depressing. So I stay in my little bubble and make pretty pictures.

And that's just fine - if you're not having fun what's the point? I used to be the moderator of a forum in a completely different fandom and the administrator, a friend of mine, said that over and over - there was no point sticking around if it wasn't fun because it was FANDOM. It was supposed to be fun. But then again the forum was invitation only, so people mostly knew one another and we mods watched the board and were willing to put out flare-ups, which rarely happened. And we used "agree to disagree" a lot.

And pretty pictures? DEFINITELY a legit expression of creativity and fannishness, as much as meta or fiction. In fact I think fanart doesn't get the kudos it deserves.

As I said, I don't respond to meta too much, but I'm sure on occasion there will be a post that peaks my interest, and I will feel compelled to add my $.02.

Please do and I hope I post some things you enjoy now and again! Infinitewhale expressed a desire to see more "fun and shallow" fandom posts, but those sorts of things may be found more readily on tumblr nowadays? I'll definitely try to post some fun things but we'll see how well I do with that.