two AM rambling...
Hrm, hrm, hrm. Wrote a proto-post this morning about Bruce and Barbara's relationship, especially in relation to Jim, and what he would think of it. (Yes, I sometimes write a first draft of LJ posts. Shut up.) Put it away for reflection.
...then I watched "Over the Edge."
Okay, so throughout, Gordon's reaction matched up pretty much with what I had written- that he would feel hurt, betrayed. Of course, I knew it was some sort of dream or alternate reality, because, well, Babs ain't dead. But it seemed pretty spot on for what I would expect.
Then we get to the end, and... huh.
I kind of figured that Barbara would feel guilty about how much it would probably hurt Jim. My thought was that Bruce would be somewhat in denial about that, in part out of mental self-defense- I don't think he could really actively think he was betraying Jim and accept that. Jim is... too much to him. He would, I thought, probably rationalize it that Jim would be okay with it. Really.
...and then it turns out the Bruce in my head is... apparently *right*. (And that's a scary thing.)
I mean... Jim *has* to know. What parent in their right mind would tell their children *not* to tell them something that obviously meant a great deal to them, unless A) they already knew (or thought they knew) and B) they didn't want to hear it.
Because while Jim is clearly supportive- *ridiculously* so, I might add- he also, equally clearly, puts it in the realm of "things we're not going to talk about." And that's...
I don't know *what* to make of that, actually.
Not sure if he's aware that she and Batman are/might be... involved. It wouldn't be a huge leap, but. Still. Parents are capable of an extreme amount of denial about their children. (I am, at this point, accepting Babs/Bruce as... if not canon in the strictest sense, part of my 'personal canon', as it's all but explicitly stated in Batman Beyond, which was done by the same team. So. I would guess it had progressed to that point by this episode. Hm. Watching "Chemistry", almost definitely not. Need to go back and watch "A Touch of Curare" again and see what, exactly, she says...)
Yeah. *looks askance at Jim Gordon*
Bruce I would expect this... decidedly odd behavior from. Jim? Not so much. I kind of count on the- well, Jim isn't a civilian, per se, but those outside the cape-and-cowl set to retain some sense of... well, sense.
Because the thing is, Jim's reaction in Barbara's dream is a normal, understandable reaction, and then it's sort of... shot down. This happens a lot in superhero comics/cartoons- things that, in our world, are not only understandable but really quite *necessary* are seen as a nuisance. For instance, all the social workers that try to take Dick/Jay away from Bruce, the school counselor looking into abuse as the cause of Tim's bruises, the criminals' point in this episode- not that they were created by Batman, because... no. But hell yeah, their civil rights were violated. *Hell* yeah. And the fact that we, the audience, know they're guilty doesn't mean that, on principle, they don't deserve a fair trial in the context of their world. (Er. Tangent. Sorry, daughter of two defense attorneys here. How I rationalize siding with Bats despite that is... another post, really, again having to do with how I think of Gotham itself.) But those outside the superhero community often hold these (perfectly normal) views, because they don't have the same (somewhat warped) values and needs.
Yes. So. Jim Gordon! What the hell. Don't know quite what to make of him at the moment. Will think more.
I wish I could write *fic* about this rather than just rambly pseudo-meta, but we work with what we've got, I suppose. Will do a more reasoned out post, probably when I've got a better overview of the series. Although my problem tends to be I'm good at observing things, but not at drawing conclusions from them. (Also: look, ma, more (quasi)-canon het! I'm not sure whether it's this fandom, or if it's just my tastes changing, but... hunh.)
...woah, that was weird. Watching "Torch Song", and Babs swooped in, and I said "Good girl" (as I am wont to do in regards to the bat brats in general) and then *Bruce* said "Good girl" and now I'm wondering if he's said it before and I picked it up from him or if I'm just getting more in tune with Toon!Bruce's brain which is kind of scary. (Commas? Wot? Wot?)
Okay going to bed now really. After I finish this episode.
...then I watched "Over the Edge."
Okay, so throughout, Gordon's reaction matched up pretty much with what I had written- that he would feel hurt, betrayed. Of course, I knew it was some sort of dream or alternate reality, because, well, Babs ain't dead. But it seemed pretty spot on for what I would expect.
Then we get to the end, and... huh.
I kind of figured that Barbara would feel guilty about how much it would probably hurt Jim. My thought was that Bruce would be somewhat in denial about that, in part out of mental self-defense- I don't think he could really actively think he was betraying Jim and accept that. Jim is... too much to him. He would, I thought, probably rationalize it that Jim would be okay with it. Really.
...and then it turns out the Bruce in my head is... apparently *right*. (And that's a scary thing.)
I mean... Jim *has* to know. What parent in their right mind would tell their children *not* to tell them something that obviously meant a great deal to them, unless A) they already knew (or thought they knew) and B) they didn't want to hear it.
Because while Jim is clearly supportive- *ridiculously* so, I might add- he also, equally clearly, puts it in the realm of "things we're not going to talk about." And that's...
I don't know *what* to make of that, actually.
Not sure if he's aware that she and Batman are/might be... involved. It wouldn't be a huge leap, but. Still. Parents are capable of an extreme amount of denial about their children. (I am, at this point, accepting Babs/Bruce as... if not canon in the strictest sense, part of my 'personal canon', as it's all but explicitly stated in Batman Beyond, which was done by the same team. So. I would guess it had progressed to that point by this episode. Hm. Watching "Chemistry", almost definitely not. Need to go back and watch "A Touch of Curare" again and see what, exactly, she says...)
Yeah. *looks askance at Jim Gordon*
Bruce I would expect this... decidedly odd behavior from. Jim? Not so much. I kind of count on the- well, Jim isn't a civilian, per se, but those outside the cape-and-cowl set to retain some sense of... well, sense.
Because the thing is, Jim's reaction in Barbara's dream is a normal, understandable reaction, and then it's sort of... shot down. This happens a lot in superhero comics/cartoons- things that, in our world, are not only understandable but really quite *necessary* are seen as a nuisance. For instance, all the social workers that try to take Dick/Jay away from Bruce, the school counselor looking into abuse as the cause of Tim's bruises, the criminals' point in this episode- not that they were created by Batman, because... no. But hell yeah, their civil rights were violated. *Hell* yeah. And the fact that we, the audience, know they're guilty doesn't mean that, on principle, they don't deserve a fair trial in the context of their world. (Er. Tangent. Sorry, daughter of two defense attorneys here. How I rationalize siding with Bats despite that is... another post, really, again having to do with how I think of Gotham itself.) But those outside the superhero community often hold these (perfectly normal) views, because they don't have the same (somewhat warped) values and needs.
Yes. So. Jim Gordon! What the hell. Don't know quite what to make of him at the moment. Will think more.
I wish I could write *fic* about this rather than just rambly pseudo-meta, but we work with what we've got, I suppose. Will do a more reasoned out post, probably when I've got a better overview of the series. Although my problem tends to be I'm good at observing things, but not at drawing conclusions from them. (Also: look, ma, more (quasi)-canon het! I'm not sure whether it's this fandom, or if it's just my tastes changing, but... hunh.)
...woah, that was weird. Watching "Torch Song", and Babs swooped in, and I said "Good girl" (as I am wont to do in regards to the bat brats in general) and then *Bruce* said "Good girl" and now I'm wondering if he's said it before and I picked it up from him or if I'm just getting more in tune with Toon!Bruce's brain which is kind of scary. (Commas? Wot? Wot?)
Okay going to bed now really. After I finish this episode.