Quick quick now!
1) The deadline is tomorrow, Friday the 20th at midnight for both otherworldlyric challenge #166 , "Easy Way Out" by Gotye, and slayerstillness challenge 20 "Love Song for a Vampire. More entries are needed - and I'm sitting both of these out, so don't look at me. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the pretties this time around
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Shipper wars are about the guy and dressed up to be about the actual awesome woman in the middle*.
*the one exception to this rule (that I've seen) has been either in the case of M/M vs. CANON M/F (which is troubling) or in the case of Lost Girl, which has a bisexual protagonist.
I don't have any problem with shippers. I love them I think they are cute.
I have A GIANT PROBLEM with fandom IGNORING female characters for the sake of "which GUY is BETTER" debates that are completely pointless.
Angel and Spike are BOTH pretty terrible people in their own ways.
Stefan and Damon are EQUALLY gross in their behavior towards Elena and the Universe.
Mason and Lauren are BOTH co-dependent and neither present a very good relationship alternative to Bo.
The shipper wars neglect actual character development aside from het (or m/m) pairings and RARELY take into consideration the Female's place and desires. The conversation very often comes down to a shouting match about which guy is more deserving... and that's just so frustrating to watch.
I think your thoughts about shipping being a part of one's identity are beautiful.
But as a deconstructionist myself, I'd also really like fandom to start questioning WHY there is a division between Spuffy and Bangel fans, instead of holding so tightly to that division. Right now, it's not creating a positive fandom experience.
And quite frankly, these dialogue ignore the female character at the apex of them, while decrying that everything is about her.
Bangel vs. Spuffy is about Angel vs. Spike
And quite frankly, I don't care. I care about Buffy. I care about Elena. And Bo and Allison and Lydia and Zoe and Lemon and all the ladies.
It's really difficult to create a positive feminist space when the dialogue is so OVERLY concerned with which guy our ladies are boning.
Ship what you like. ID yourself how you like...
... but I'm still wondering why the crowning definition in fandom isn't "Buffy stan" it's "Spuffy shipper" ... because I'd prefer a space where the former exceeds the latter.
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I have A GIANT PROBLEM with fandom IGNORING female characters for the sake of "which GUY is BETTER" debates that are completely pointless.
I think your thoughts about shipping being a part of one's identity are beautiful.
But as a deconstructionist myself, I'd also really like fandom to start questioning WHY there is a division between Spuffy and Bangel fans, instead of holding so tightly to that division. Right now, it's not creating a positive fandom experience.
And quite frankly, these dialogue ignore the female character at the apex of them, while decrying that everything is about her.
Bangel vs. Spuffy is about Angel vs. Spike
And quite frankly, I don't care. I care about Buffy. I care about Elena. And Bo and Allison and Lydia and Zoe and Lemon and all the ladies.
... but I'm still wondering why the crowning definition in fandom isn't "Buffy stan" it's "Spuffy shipper" ... because I'd prefer a space where the former exceeds the latter.
THIS THIS THIS ALL OF THIS - and you just wrote my effin' meta FOR ME, Kelsey, thank you very much!
I'm not "anti-shipper" - shipping isn't the primary lens by which I view the series, it's one of many.
I'm not against any one shipping character A with characters x, y and/or z. Ship whomever you like. Write a good, plausible story that doesn't bash the female character - that doesn't bash anyone for the sake of your favorite - and I'm good. Love who you love.
I'm AGAINST all the things you call out. Period.
And the patterns are the same across the board with all factions of shipping - and every group of shippers thinks the others are wrong and completely different to themselves. And that isn't the case at all.
It certainly isn't exclusive to Bangels and Spuffies. You want to see some genuine meanness towards Buffy? Read some non-canon ship fics: Buffy/Giles, Buffy/Xander. There are exceptions but by and large those fics exist not because the writer likes both characters, but because "that bitch didn't pay enough attention to/wasn't nice enough to my favorite guy. I'll fix that!"
My solution? Don't read those fics, back out of them when I see it coming, support authors who write things I enjoy - that are balanced and truthful and fair to both partners because they are genuinely interested in both - IT CAN BE DONE.
And keep writing & talking about the characters I love - keep the focus on who and what I love : Buffy, Joyce, Tara, Dawn, the interelationships of female characters, parent-child dynamics, what have you. If I love Buffy then I need to pay attention to all of her relationships, not reduce her to the dimestore novel romantic heroine she never was.
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I once had the best conversation with a female slash fan, who said she identifies with male characters more because she wants to live the masculine narrative. She doesn't identify with Molly Hooper, she identifies with Sherlock Holmes. She does't ship Molly/Sherlock, she ships Watson/Sherlock. She said it was the same thing with Teen Wolf and Supernatural and all those shows where the slash fans seem to silence the fans of the het relationships. I told her that I'm exactly the opposite. I don't identify with male characters; I identify with female characters, so I either ship slash or femmeslash pairings.
I wasn't thinking in terms of feminist criticism when I wrote this. You're right in saying that female characters often get dismissed in shipping. I think that's because a lot of female fans identify with male characters. I don't know if this is latent misogyny, that they identify with the male characters because society values male characters over female characters, or that there's just something about the male characters that relates to them better than female characters. So while I think you're probably right, I'm also conflicted.
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When those people participate in female character-bashing, slut shaming, and misogynist dialogue? Yes. I am okay with it.
The problem with the shipper-dialogue is that it is NOT female-character centric or even polite to females. Especially the shipper wars.
If you want to be a fan of Spike and debate with an Angel fan. Be my guest. (even though I think that discussion is pretty fucking pointless)
Don't drag Buffy through the mud and call it loving her.
(This is not directed towards you personally, Lex I LOVE YOU, but rather the shipper mentality as it has stood for some time now.)
if this is latent misogyny, that they identify with the male characters because society values male characters over female characters
I'd say probably a great deal of this. And also misogyny in the media industry, which gives us more varied male characters to id with.
But I mean... I only put up with this comment on media representations of females for so long. There ARE brilliant females in media culture that are not loved to the frenzied extent that male characters are. I think it's time to stop crying about how there "aren't any female characters!" and start acknowledging that we aren't caring about the ones that we have.
It took one week for there to be a Crane/Headless Horseman fic to pop up on ao3 - EVEN THO CRANE SHARES MORE SCREEN TIME WITH ABBIE. (cause fuck a woc - we only care about men)
Allison Argent just got fridged this week. I canNOT handle another conversation about how there "aren't" female characters to love. There are. There are many. Just because the PTB doesn't love them and gives them shitty storylines - doesn't mean that we should make them secondary in our "poaching" culture.
If fandom was really a culture where we 'poached' from the text and interrogated it and made it better and more thought-provoking, shouldn't the f/f fans at least match the m/m fans? OR HELL SHOULDN'T THE F/M FIC MATCH THE NUMBERS OF THE M/M? it doesn't.
Considering the vile hatred that I've seen coming from shippers of late - I'm not about to pat the community on the back and say "oh yes, you have every right to yell at people" because they don't. Shipper wars create a negative atmosphere in fandom and defending that behavior isn't going to change it or make it better.
Does it really matter at the end of the day whether you are a Bangel or a Spuffy? I have delightful friends in both camps, and while I don't always understand the Bangel siren call - I still love my friends.
And quite frankly, Spuffy isn't the end all be all ship. It's toxic and has heaps of problems.
I'd rather have a situation where shippers are able to understand and interrogate how their ships aren't perfect than hold their ship to their chest and scream at people who don't believe it is perfect sun-shiny.
They aren't.
There's no perfect relationship.
Not in the media, not in real life.
There are problems that need to be addressed at every level of media consumption and identity formation.
And a dialogue that refuses to acknowledge this or even contemplate questioning it - because HOW DARE YOU DISLIKE WHAT I LOVE - is toxic.
Disliking Spuffy or Spike doesn't mean that someone dislikes you. And probably if the conversation was more congenial, the opposing camps would be able to see that they have more in common with each other than they think.
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I don't care, tbh.
Call me a feminazi or something. I'll probably like it at this point. There's so much shit in media production that just ... reveals how much people don't care for women. If you are a male character's fan. Be a fan. Don't say it's about the ship - because what it is about is that you think your baby's worth is determined by the poon he scores.
And that's gross.
If shippers can completely dismiss the female on such an epic scale that I notice (and I pay no the fuck attention to this most days), then I'm all about ignoring you if you are actually in this for the guy, but pretending that you care what happens to the female. Wear your spots proudly.
((I may be really overly upset about the number of female character deaths that have occurred this year. TOO FUCKING MANY. It's only March. IT'S ONLY MARCH AND THREE OF MY FAVORITE FEMALES ON TELEVISION HAVE DIED ALREADY THIS YEAR. AND GIA. I'm so NOT in the mood to baby shippers OR male characters. There's too many male characters. Give me a fandom that doesn't give a shit about male characters. Give me so many female characters that the F/F fic on AO3 outweighs the M/M fic. Give me a fandom where there is a HEALTHY dialogue about relationships and not a war that no one can win and only encourages female-bashing and slut-shaming and prioritizes male characters. Give me a fandom where shippers don't feel the need to get a pat on the back for being hateful to other groups of people based on personal preferences. Give me living, breathing female characters and STOP KILLING THEM.))
(((I am really emotional and probably shouldn't be talking about this. It's been a really hard fucking year for ladies.)))
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But this NEEDS to be said. Everything you've said? That's where I'm at.
Nail, head. Head, desk.
And these are exactly the patterns I identified (or was trying to) when I spoke about the way the Dawn & Spike friendship is conventionally portrayed. It's not just about sexual/romantic ships. It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.
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But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.
That's unconscionable.
Any dialogue right now that is pro-males in a way that becomes anti-female, I'm not about it. I don't have the patience right now. I'm at my wits' end with loss this year. Too many female characters have died.
It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.
What makes me so frustrated is when I'm legitimately trying to have a constructive conversation - that places women first - and because of the negativity that these gender-centric patterns upheld in shipper spaces, no conversation can even begin.
So I'm sitting there, trying to talk about how awesome a relationship dynamic is and on one hand I have the shippers who yell "YES EVERYTHING IS PERFECT ISN'T IT WONDERFUL" and on the other hand the anti-shippers screaming "YES BUT THIS OTHER THING IS SO MUCH BETTER" and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin. You can't talk about the problems or the good things or engage a conversation in fandom about very much of anything, without this dynamic lingering overhead. Either with shippers frustrated that you aren't defending every bad thing a male character has ever done - or because those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.
It's a completely toxic system that profits from stopping conversation and prioritizing DA MALE.
And no. I'm done. I don't want it in my fandom spaces anymore.
I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.
Women die in rapid rates on Supernatural and fandom cheers. Because how DARE a female come between Wincest or Destiel? SHOCKING AND APPALLING! WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! It's not a 1:1 ratio. But shippers need to change their habits first. Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.
(Forever in mourning.)
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That's unconscionable.
Yes it is. I've spent 40+ plus years watching horrible bullshit - and it's unconscionable that we're no better off than we were four decades ago in some respects.
But then again I watched Tara die only two years ago and I'm still in mourning. I refuse to watch AtS for that very reason. I will not watch them destroy Cordy and Fred. I finally had to turn off Bones this year - a silly bit of entertainment that happened to have three dynamic, ethnically and racially diverse professional women in the sciences, and focused on them in their careers - because they turned the female protagonist into a de facto moron. They didn't kill her but they broke her. And people are ok with that.
The fact that those ladies existed at all is something to celebrate. The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.
and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it" and THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION can't even begin.
I don't want to misunderstand you too fast - but I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here. Certainly I've been called worst things - I've been labeled an "abuse apologist" because I love Buffy but ship Buffy and Spike in S7. I've been called a Willow hater because I dared question someone's position that Tara was partly responsible for Willow's treatment of her in S6. I've been told I'm an angry bitch and not angry enough.
But I'm not sure what you mean here. I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?
those in the middle are tired of the "love" that is splashed all over and they don't want to even think about how it COULD be interesting if looked at more interrogatively.
I DO think about it - again, I feel you're mischaracterizing me here if you're lumping me "in the middle".
Yes I do know people who have dropped out of fandom because they don't have the time or energy to continue to fight the fights. Some wonderful voices are lost, and that's too bad. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves.
I'm determined to "stay in the game" - keep talking, keep writing, keep making icons, keep recommending the work by people - like yourself - who do love female characters, who speak on these issues more effectively than perhaps I can.
Because I am angry. But I don't have the elegant intellectual phrases and fancy arguments. I can't compete with that. I don't have the energy, physically or mentally, that I had twenty years ago. What I can do is talk about who I love and why, over and over. and make an effort to reconsider characters who are hard for me to love and why. And it works, in very real ways. I've seen it happen.
If that's not sufficient in someone else's judgment, well - that's what I have to give.
I think if fandom had an uprising and there were more female-centric conversations and people started prioritizing females, eventually TPTB would notice.
I agree - and that's why we do what we do here in fandom. It's why clockwork_hart1 has switched from largely shippy fic to friendship and female-oriented fic in the last year. When I talk about Joyce, I find that a character no one is "interested in" is - actually of interest to quite a few people. You've generated interest in Dawn that never existed before. It just needed ONE person to say "look again".
We are the change we want to be, even if we go about it differently.
Because media is a long-term battle and if we change OUR dialogue, eventually the rest of the world will take note.
Over four decades I've seen so many moments when I've thought "this is it, things are really starting to change". And then they backslide, and the pendulum swings back and forth, conservative to liberal and back again.
What we need is to get OUT of that pendulum swing altogether and acknowledge an entirely new paradigm. It hasn't happened yet, but I'll keep trying. I trust we are allies in this fight.
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I think maybe the first fic I wrote in the fandom was a Save Fred fic because her death hurt me so much that I wasn't able to just let it go. Then I started trying to post weekly to the fantas magoria challenges, which was on Ats s5, hence why a lot of my early fic focuses on Angel, Spike and Wes (and Illyria, actually).
I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write, and it was after that the female centric stuff came in because it was honestly what I found more interesting. I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart. But it wasn't until I branched out that I wanted to read other People’s thoughts and feelings about these things, and now that's what my fandom life is devoted to.
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I think that relates to what drove the first Star Trek fanfic Kirk/Spock shippers - they wanted to write about interesting characters and relationships, but there were no interesting female characters to be found. So they subverted canon.
Nowadays there ARE rich, interesting female characters but they are not being written in fandom about to the extent that the guys are.
I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart.
I think I'm "lucky" (?) in that I never had to make that "translation" or mental leap. The ladies were ALWAYS were it was at for me. The opposite is the hard part for me - I'm not anti-guy, I have brothers and uncles and male friends and I love them. But the interest just isn't there for me.
Surrogate father-daughter relationships are an exception: Doctor #7 and Ace, Satine and Zidler, Jordan Cavenaugh and Garret Macy (Garret is one of the few male characters I really love), Buffy and Giles.
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Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.
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Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.
It's been around for several years - I don't know who made it, but penny_lane_42 was using it, and I had one spot left and HAD to snag it. It was time to bring it back out of the closet IMO.
Whoever gave me the paid account has no idea what they've done. Once upon a time I was content with 15 icons. Now 32 isn't enough - I WANT MORE, MORE DAMNIT! *lol*
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It's so gross I can't....
And ouch. I didn't know that about Bones and that makes me so sad. I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.
I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here
I'm sorry. I was trying to make a general statement about shipper-fatigue. Which I have come across many, many times. And I was placing you there because I know that you have shipper-fatigue (especially with Spike/Dawn shippers). I was NOT saying that there's anything wrong with feeling this way - but that the problem is that the culture surrounding Spike/Dawn shipping (for example) has become such a toxic place that the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation. Which is totally fine and valid. I understand and agree with you. And it happens all over fandom. Something pops up for me that feels really interesting that might build conversation and because of negativity produced in shipper and anti-shipper communities, conversation has a hard time starting.
THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME MANY TIMES.
And generally I just shrug it off or ignore it. But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens? And that I'm more frustrated that the environment breeds this kind of fatigue than that people are justifiably frustrated.
I get angry and I'm told to shut up. I try to love, I pick my battles carefully so I don't burn out and stay in the fight the distance, and it's - somehow not enough?
Fandom is shitty. I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this. It's upsetting that there's anything to be angry about and that you feel as though you need to tiptoe.
(and if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry. I know that I would rather talk about the good things than the bad most of the time, but I'm breaking into the fray because this year has been so upsetting. I'd love a scenario where Dawn/Spike dynamics aren't so frustrating for you so that we can talk about them. I'm mad at the dynamic for the sake of you - because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?)
Really these were general statements and I did not mean to direct them towards or on you at all. Except in the sense that I thought you understood shipper-fatigue?
I love that you love. I love when anyone loves. I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.
*sigh*
I really hope fandom starts getting it's shit together and these small changes grow and expand.
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Anyway, I just feel bad that this hurts you so much. But I'm here to support you in your pained rage.
ILY.
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Pepper is great, but why can't a woman be Iron Man?
Because (white, able-bodied) male is the default setting. I can say "we need more women storytellers" but there is no evidence that women will tell more female-centric stories (fandom is proof of that.) Meanwhile, some of my favorite f/f writers in fandom are men; the only conversation I've seen online that is respectful of Marti Noxon as a writer and artist was amongst a group of male fans. Phyllis Schafley led the charge against the ERA back in the 1970's.
So lest anyone think this about male vs female, it's not.
I've been just playing the devil's advocate here.
So - what was the argument again, really?
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I made it to somewhere into early S8 on Netflix and had to stop in disgust so I'm torn between wanting to tell you STOP and "keep watching, experience my pain and rage and then talk about it because IT NEEDS TO BE SAID!" clockwork_hart1 just said this on her blog: And I never saw Bones from the start...The ones that I have seen, well, they're trying for Anya-level no-people-skills-aren't-regular-people-cute and hitting calculated moron. What the glittery fuck, guys? Aren't women on TV allowed to just be intelligent? Yuck. http://clockwork-hart1.livejournal.com/20681.html?thread=316617#t316617
Her Anya-and-Xander comparison is frighteningly accurate. Yuck hardly covers it.
the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation.
Which was really only a few posts in a single conversation of the many I've had; I don't think it represents everything I have to say on the subject. In any case, what I said then and what you're saying here are exactly the same things. We're just each somewhat more sensitive to certain characters; and I perhaps misread the "temperature" of the room. If you specifically said in your post that you wanted celebration and I completely missed that, then that's on me. Spike/Dawn are one of your loves, so I could have been more discrete. Your passion, your anger is my own, even if we differ on what triggers us.
conversation has a hard time starting.
how do you even start a conversation with people who don't see the problem, and/or don't think it's a problem to begin with? With people who don't want to talk and listen to one another? And we wonder why there's no peace in the Middle East.
But as we are having a discussion about the toxic environment negative shippers bring to the table it would feel neglectful if I didn't mention that this sometimes happens?
Absolutely! I just felt that I was being labeled in a way that misrepresents me, based on a handful of conversations or a couple of comments I made; just as your comments here don't represent the totality of who you are and your opinions.
I wish there was a way that you didn't have to play tiptoe like this.
I certainly understand shipper fatigue, it frustrated me for a while; so my strategy has been primarily been to "ac-cen-tu-ate the positive" as the song goes. Sometimes I still do rant, but I'm not spending all my time swimming upstream in a current that's only going to drown me. I'm digging out my own beautiful river.
if I ever made you feel as though you need to tiptoe around me, I'm sorry.
I know it wasn't ever intentional. But I DO appreciate you saying that, very much, it means a lot to me. *hugs*
because I want you there with me. Does that make sense?
Completely.
I'm so sorry that there are places of fandom that leave anyone feeling like the conversation isn't one that they can participate in because of negativity.
And I'm happy that conversations like this are happening as well. I'm happy that chasingdemons made a manip of the ladies of the verse inspired by my enthusiasm and energy as a newish fan. I'm oh so happy that you focus on Dawn the way you do and people are realizing how aweseome she is. I'm thrilled that the internet exists and all these conversations aren't happening in isolation, just a few people at a time, because the internet wasn't around and now we can talk to one another no matter where we are and that's AWESOME.
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