Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:37:01 UTC
I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:53:13 UTC
just be glad you're not Spike, honey
Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
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Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
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