Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 3 2013, 18:08:45 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure" - which is both nifty 'cause I love me some S7 Buffy&Spike BUT
- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becominglanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 18:43:46 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure"
Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.
It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
MYSTERIES OVER MYSTERIES. Come to think of it, the relationships of the Scoobies are usually only compared insofar as that they all end tragically, aren't they? Maybe there's more to unearth here.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
I do think some fans view Riley as at fault, but it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not. You're right though: Riley does give her that last push toward believing herself a complete destroyer of love, doesn't he? :( Guh it's so unfair. Especially since I think she is very affectionate toward him and he just ignores that in favor of letting his insecures talk and warp things to a point where he thinks he's hardly more than a nice sextoy to her (b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey).
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:37:01 UTC
I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:53:13 UTC
just be glad you're not Spike, honey
Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
MOULIN ROUGE ASIDE CHRISTIAN IS A DICK. 8( Seriously, a few years ago I rewatched the movie after a long time and at first I was like "d'awww what a cutie", but then I began to see how extremely preoccupied he is with his jealousy to the extent of not even noticing that Satine is coughing a lot. He never asks if she's okay and doesn't care so much about her as to what she is to him. And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.
THIS. Years ago a friend and I collaborated on a MR fanfic that starts at the point of the scene: "I don't want you to sleep with him" and goes AU from that. Unfortunately it's not only WIP but it's - longish and rather bad, and problematic in it's own right. (re: the evil homosexual aka the Duke.) I'm embarrassed now that I put so much time into the thing. But srsly - I don't want you to sleep with him? What about "Do you want to sleep with him?" What about her needs? Seriously, "I'll write a song!" has got to be the dumbest solution ever.
But jealousy is not something I ever really understood anyway; envy? Yes. Seeing someone else stronger, more confident, better off than myself and feeling ashamed I'm not more like them; but I don't want to take what they have away from them, I just wish I knew how to achieve it myself, or feel I deserve to. Jealousy to me is "I feel bad because I lack (whatever) or have a hang-up about (whatever) and therefore I have to control your behavior to ease my anxiety, I don't have this (whatever) therefore you shouldn't either."
And I've been on the receiving end of my sweetie's jealousy - which goes back to the breakup of her first major relationship. And it sucks being under the shadow of someone else's ghost (her ex died years ago so - major lack of closure). There's definitely been a sexual element to it.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And Angel, Xander, Spike - they all express jealousy at various times; its a form of policing Buffy's sexuality, her body, her very self and marking her as their territory in some way. Possessing her. Which again is why I like Buffy/Spike in S7, because it's the opposite of that. While Angel comes back in Chosen and is still policing her sexuality. As I said in my Buffy/Tara meta, that's why neither he nor Riley are worthy to be at her side in the end.
- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
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Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.
It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
MYSTERIES OVER MYSTERIES. Come to think of it, the relationships of the Scoobies are usually only compared insofar as that they all end tragically, aren't they? Maybe there's more to unearth here.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
I do think some fans view Riley as at fault, but it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not. You're right though: Riley does give her that last push toward believing herself a complete destroyer of love, doesn't he? :( Guh it's so unfair. Especially since I think she is very affectionate toward him and he just ignores that in favor of letting his insecures talk and warp things to a point where he thinks he's hardly more than a nice sextoy to her (b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey).
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THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
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Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
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... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
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THIS. Years ago a friend and I collaborated on a MR fanfic that starts at the point of the scene: "I don't want you to sleep with him" and goes AU from that. Unfortunately it's not only WIP but it's - longish and rather bad, and problematic in it's own right. (re: the evil homosexual aka the Duke.) I'm embarrassed now that I put so much time into the thing. But srsly - I don't want you to sleep with him? What about "Do you want to sleep with him?" What about her needs? Seriously, "I'll write a song!" has got to be the dumbest solution ever.
But jealousy is not something I ever really understood anyway; envy? Yes. Seeing someone else stronger, more confident, better off than myself and feeling ashamed I'm not more like them; but I don't want to take what they have away from them, I just wish I knew how to achieve it myself, or feel I deserve to. Jealousy to me is "I feel bad because I lack (whatever) or have a hang-up about (whatever) and therefore I have to control your behavior to ease my anxiety, I don't have this (whatever) therefore you shouldn't either."
And I've been on the receiving end of my sweetie's jealousy - which goes back to the breakup of her first major relationship. And it sucks being under the shadow of someone else's ghost (her ex died years ago so - major lack of closure). There's definitely been a sexual element to it.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And Angel, Xander, Spike - they all express jealousy at various times; its a form of policing Buffy's sexuality, her body, her very self and marking her as their territory in some way. Possessing her. Which again is why I like Buffy/Spike in S7, because it's the opposite of that. While Angel comes back in Chosen and is still policing her sexuality. As I said in my Buffy/Tara meta, that's why neither he nor Riley are worthy to be at her side in the end.
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