I just got a notification in my email inbox! And yes I looked but haven't commented yet. You are so sweet *hugs*
NO YOU ♥
Btw I've been getting notifs of you mentioning me all over the place over time and I just think it is so cute. :)
Yes, but it started small (Buffybot in Bargaining and "I'll chop her into messes") and has grown from there to include Edvard Munch, and Sheila, and the notion of Dru and Buffy as "seers" but also women and madness in the verse, and - yeah. I'm beginning to think I'm biting off more than I can chew. Maybe I need to cut it in half or do it in parts.
GO FOR IT this sounds super interesting and like a facet that hasn't been explored a lot yet. Though Dru and Buffy have often been paralleled, but the focus on how they affected by Angelus/what role they played in relation to him. (I.e. Drusilla as a prototype for what he planned with Buffy in S2.) I'd really love to see a focus on them as "seers".
This is really a challenge for me because I'm used to writing metas, whereas picspam-metas are sort of new (I know they are pretty common on tumblr. Or maybe it's a generational thing?) The Buffy & Joyce one is nice but I'd been planning that for a while, and I thought it'd get more comments, actually. Maybe there need to be more words, more actual "meta" to generate conversation? IDK
Hmm, yeah, in my experience people mostly just make picspams or gifsets which then... get reblogged a lot. Occasionally someone will decide to meta based on them, sometimes entirely in the tags, but it seems pretty rare? But yeah, tumblr is originally an image blog site so it lends itself to that. Personally I do like a bit of written meta to go off of, otherwise I just tend to go "ohhh nice pictures". Oops.
I just am big on the linking and referencing - I guess that's what I learned in college. Well, everyone did when it comes to that, but I guess it's natural to me? Like, someone mentions a subject and I know someone else has written about it or I was just having that same conversation with someone else? Referring to that person/post seems easier than reconstructing the conversation, whether or not that person actually looks at it. And also when I like someone's writing or artwork or ideas and I think more people should know about them and join the conversation.
Anyhoo, I can live with "cute". *lol*
Though Dru and Buffy have often been paralleled, but the focus on how they affected by Angelus/what role they played in relation to him.
I almost think of the men more generically in some ways if that makes sense? Like, this could become Spike-centric and I'm trying to avoid that, but I haven't thought about Angelus all that much.
(I.e. Drusilla as a prototype for what he planned with Buffy in S2.)
I think 2maggie2 et al cover that quite a bit in the episode notes on her LJ. Buffy's also paralleled (obviously) with Darla, but I haven't watched AtS and I don't think someone can talk about Darla at this point without doing so.
infinitewhale told me that Joss is freaked out by love scenes and hasn't directed one since "Amends" - which would explain a LOT. Because that fear of female sexuality is very Victorian, and a lot of btvs and the treatment of female sexuality in it makes sense. even with the comics. It reminds me of the creation of the femme fatale in the late 19th century by men who were nervous about feminism, about immigrants and blacks, who made women monstrous, the whole saving one's seed and copulating only for reproduction, blah blah bitty blah....Being afraid of female sexuality, imaging vaginas have little teeth, that men will be devoured as helpless victims, is the most bizarre notion to me. A professor from Scotland jokingly called it "sexy death" but it's a pretty sick joke.
If someone is afraid of female sexuality, if they're afraid of sex, then that indicates to me a fear of life, not death, or a confusion of the two because sexuality (and sensuality) are core components of life. We wouldn't be here without it, right?
And if Joss is likewise freaked out by love scenes, by female sexuality, then how can he make or be expected to make a truly "empowering" story for and about women? He shows his hand all over the place - in the opening act of WTTH, in Darla and Dru, in Sheila and Faith as "bad girls", in sexuality being Buffy's undoing over and over again, and she ends up the series in a chaste relationship, in Joyce dying right after she goes on a date with a man for the first time in the series entirely of her own free will, in Tara being shot to death in Joyce's bedroom after making love to Willow....
Like you said, when Joss is good he's great but when he fails it's EPIC. And the sad thing is, the dude seems to be unaware of this, or unwilling to have this pointed out to him.
I'd really love to see a focus on them as "seers".
I also feel inadequate to the task, but maybe just mentioning it will be enough to get the ball rolling?
But yeah, tumblr is originally an image blog site so it lends itself to that.
Makes sense. And I love the way these images can serve as wordless metas, like one I saw that compares Willow killing the deer in Bargaining with Tara's death, which - WOW. A picture really is worth a thousand words. (And now when I try to find the link in my bookmarks of course I can't.)
1/2 here we go again...lanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 17:44:19 UTC
I just am big on the linking and referencing - I guess that's what I learned in college. Well, everyone did when it comes to that, but I guess it's natural to me? Like, someone mentions a subject and I know someone else has written about it or I was just having that same conversation with someone else? Referring to that person/post seems easier than reconstructing the conversation, whether or not that person actually looks at it.
*nodnod* I see what you mean! Interesting that that is your immediate association upon my comment though. 8D Ahhh, college. It's gonna stay with me forever, isn't it.
And also when I like someone's writing or artwork or ideas and I think more people should know about them and join the conversation.
So I guess what I mean by "cute" is also "heartwarming" -- because it does so warm my heart that you think my ideas are share-worthy. :) I am actually really shy about voicing my ideas because I have no confidence in them, which is one of the big personal problems I'm currently grappling with, I think. With you, though? I'm really comfortable discussing things. So thank you for being awesome. ♥
I almost think of the men more generically in some ways if that makes sense? Like, this could become Spike-centric and I'm trying to avoid that, but I haven't thought about Angelus all that much.
Which is something I do not mind at all. I love Spike as much as the next Spuffy shipper, but there is quite enough out there about him. Let Dru get some spotlight!
I think 2maggie2 et al cover that quite a bit in the episode notes on her LJ. Buffy's also paralleled (obviously) with Darla, but I haven't watched AtS and I don't think someone can talk about Darla at this point without doing so.
She did! I've read some stuff here and there about how Darla is a proto-Buffy, or Buffy is actually a stand-in for Darla -- something to that effect. I did watch AtS not that long ago, but I still don't feel like I have a clear enough memory of the Darla arc to really comment on it so much. :[ What is interesting though -- Darla tries to take his soul by having sex with him, and when he still has it afterwards, she is upset and comments that "that was perfect" and Angel replies that yes, it was: perfect despair. In which I don't think it's as simple as Buffy good, Darla bad, so. CLOSER INVESTIGATIONS MUST BE PERFORMED.
infinitewhale told me that Joss is freaked out by love scenes and hasn't directed one since "Amends" - which would explain a LOT.
Huh. I didn't know that. It does explain a lot. Though I think I remember that Joss said on the DVD commentary to Innocence that he wanted to explore Buffy's sexuality without getting exploitative. So maybe it's not even that his heart is in that wrong a place, but his issues sure do get in the way.
Re: 1/2 here we go again...red_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 23:14:23 UTC
Interesting that that is your immediate association upon my comment though
I don't know that it was an IMMEDIATE association, maybe me grasping for straws actually. Lots of people in this fandom have gone to college and don't do that, so I guess it's just a "me" thing. But my brain likes connections; even when I was in college and gave house parties, I would try to invite people from all the "different areas" of my life who didn't know each other already, and it usually made things more interesting. More connections made. Like, "cross-curriculum" but the social RL version. ;)
So I guess what I mean by "cute" is also "heartwarming" -- because it does so warm my heart that you think my ideas are share-worthy.
It's really hard for me to accept compliments! But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them.
I am actually really shy about voicing my ideas because I have no confidence in them, which is one of the big personal problems I'm currently grappling with, I think.
That's me in a nutshell! And I've been grappling with it for decades, and sometimes I have more confidence in myself, and then something happens and it feels like the rug is pulled from under me and I go back into hiding. I think self-confidence is something that pretty much got hammered out of me when I was young.
With you, though? I'm really comfortable discussing things. So thank you for being awesome. ♥
*BLUSHES* I feel exactly the same way with you, dear. I'm glad you feel safe here, that's really important to me, and I love our conversations.
I love Spike as much as the next Spuffy shipper, but there is quite enough out there about him. Let Dru get some spotlight!
AMEN
So maybe it's not even that his heart is in that wrong a place, but his issues sure do get in the way.
That sounds about right. I take everything Joss says with a barrel of salt, though.
Because that fear of female sexuality is very Victorian, and a lot of btvs and the treatment of female sexuality in it makes sense. even with the comics. It reminds me of the creation of the femme fatale in the late 19th century by men who were nervous about feminism, about immigrants and blacks, who made women monstrous, the whole saving one's seed and copulating only for reproduction, blah blah bitty blah....Being afraid of female sexuality, imaging vaginas have little teeth, that men will be devoured as helpless victims, is the most bizarre notion to me. A professor from Scotland jokingly called it "sexy death" but it's a pretty sick joke.
If someone is afraid of female sexuality, if they're afraid of sex, then that indicates to me a fear of life, not death, or a confusion of the two because sexuality (and sensuality) are core components of life. We wouldn't be here without it, right?
True! And yet, sex is so often conflated with death (see: Freud. See also: why I can't take Freud seriously). Which I feel is strongly connected to all that stuff you mentioned in your previous paragraph and is a very male-centric view: the fear of losing yourself in sex, succumbing helplessly to a woman's mysterious wiles. But it goes the other way around too, doesn't it? I mean, into whom is the lesson that sex is scary and dangerous pounded more vigorously than into young girls? When we talk about the first sexual experience of girls/women, it's in terms of "popping the cherry", "tearing the hymen", "busting a virgin". All horrifyingly violent imagery.
And if Joss is likewise freaked out by love scenes, by female sexuality, then how can he make or be expected to make a truly "empowering" story for and about women? He shows his hand all over the place - in the opening act of WTTH, in Darla and Dru, in Sheila and Faith as "bad girls", in sexuality being Buffy's undoing over and over again, and she ends up the series in a chaste relationship, in Joyce dying right after she goes on a date with a man for the first time in the series entirely of her own free will, in Tara being shot to death in Joyce's bedroom after making love to Willow....
Wow. When you list up all of this, it really is incredibly creepy. The whole conflation of "sexual = bad" in female characters has also bothered me a lot. Or the other way around, that you can tell a woman is evil by how openly sexual it is. Add to that S6 and the implication that frequent and intense sex and kink are connected to mental illness, and I'm just about done. Which is why I do love Buffy's little throw-away line about oil-wrestling in Chosen; it's mere crumbs, but a tiny hint that a more mentally balanced Buffy is still kinky as hell. :P (Also she is totally a slasher, which amuses me to no end. I have the beginning of an early-seasons fic in which Willow explains the wonders of slash to Buffy sitting around on my hard drive.)
I also feel inadequate to the task, but maybe just mentioning it will be enough to get the ball rolling?
Re: 2/3, actually.red_satin_dollJuly 3 2013, 19:31:45 UTC
See also: why I can't take Freud seriously
I've read a couple of Alice Miller's books (author of "the Drama of the Gifted Child") including the one in which she outlined why she was no longer a Freudian psychotherapist: she began to take a good hard look at the sexism of her field and Freud's theories. His original ideas had been much more "feminist" in nature and I'd say more accurate; he took his patients' reports of sexual abuse much more seriously, but was encouraged by peers to alter his theories to fit current male-dominated ideas: female patients were hysterical, in love with their fathers and making it all up. I was in a performance art class in college when one of the other students did a performance spouting ridiculous notions about women, as if she were a man, and we were all laughing at the stupidity of the ideas until we began to realize that she was reciting Freud; then an uneasy hush fell over the class. Ouch.
I mean, into whom is the lesson that sex is scary and dangerous pounded more vigorously than into young girls? ....All horrifyingly violent imagery.
True, women were taught to avoid sex until marriage, that their sexuality only existed for their husband's pleasure and use, that men are monsters as well. There is a difference though in that men have been encouraged to claim their sexual pleasure, they've gone to whores, they've learned to masturbate and it's either been considered acceptable or at least people looked the other way because, you know, they can't help themselves. Women have been discouraged from claiming and enjoying their sexuality - they were unclean etc and men did awful things simply because women existed. Our bodies, our genitals, our menstruation, is a dirty shameful secret. I never heard the worlds "labia" & "clictoris" until i was in college in the late '80's. "Down there" was the source of blood, piss and shit, someplace dirty and forbidden. It was near the area my stepfather spanked me with a belt: no positive associations there. My professor, a man in his 60's, quietly handed me a book on masturbation for women by a female doctor when I asked him "what are these?", and it was scary at first but I think also amazing and liberating. I loved it when I came across a sort of picture book a couple of decades later, "Care and feeding of your clitoris" aimed at preteen girls, because that's something I would want to give to all girls, to teach them, preferably before they were teens.
it's in terms of "popping the cherry",
I saw Buffy's cherry print dress in Restless and nearly shouted "You've GOT to be fucking kidding me."
you can tell a woman is evil by how openly sexual it is.
YES. Darla, Sheila in School Hard, Dru, Faith, etc. Buffy fears that sex with Spike is a sign that she's evil. Dru plays of helpless little girl until What's My Line when she is "healed"; then she puts on a red dress, flirts openly with "Daddy" and sides with Angelus in his scheme to end the world. She's no longer just wacko but dangerous in her own right. In School Hard she kills "bad girl" Sheila; in Becoming she kills the virginal, inexperienced Kendra. Women are supposed to be good girls, but if they remain innocent they are also increasing the risk of being victimized so damned either way, right?
Add to that S6 and the implication that frequent and intense sex and kink are connected to mental illness, and I'm just about done.
PREACH
Which is why I do love Buffy's little throw-away line about oil-wrestling in Chosen; it's mere crumbs, but a tiny hint that a more mentally balanced Buffy is still kinky as hell. :P
Exactly. For once it's not a joke at her expense. Which is why I hated the webcomic where her nightmare is about Angel and Spike kissing one another and ignoring her ; I know it's meant to be a nightmare but it's played for laughs, at Buffy's expense. The spacefrak is played as a joke as well. that's just ugly and regressive. So many problems here, so little time.
I have the beginning of an early-seasons fic in which Willow explains the wonders of slash to Buffy sitting around on my hard drive.
Re: 2/3, actually.lanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 21:35:51 UTC
until we began to realize that she was reciting Freud; then an uneasy hush fell over the class. Ouch.
Ow. Ow. Ouch indeed.
His original ideas had been much more "feminist" in nature and I'd say more accurate; he took his patients' reports of sexual abuse much more seriously, but was encouraged by peers to alter his theories to fit current male-dominated ideas
That is really interesting, actually. I'll have to look her up.
they've learned to masturbate
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect. Of course, I doubt that at that time, people were aware female masturbation was even possible, because no way would a woman have sexual urges unless she's a whore, of course. :|
Our bodies, our genitals, our menstruation, is a dirty shameful secret. I never heard the worlds "labia" & "clictoris" until i was in college in the late '80's. "Down there" was the source of blood, piss and shit, someplace dirty and forbidden. It was near the area my stepfather spanked me with a belt: no positive associations there.
Oh honey, I'm so sorry. :( *hugs and loves on* I think for me personally, having grown up in the 90s, it was better. I was still scandalized at masturbation when I first learned about it, but then I was also a strange kid. I learned about it in an article praising its advantages for women especially and pleading for more acceptance and less shame, no less! But somehow I had this thing where no matter how it was treated, if I learned about something taboo I would mostly pick up the taboo factor. I had and have my own hangups with "being a good girl" etc.
I loved it when I came across a sort of picture book a couple of decades later, "Care and feeding of your clitoris" aimed at preteen girls, because that's something I would want to give to all girls, to teach them, preferably before they were teens.
Oh, that sounds like a great book! I definitely think that open, shame-free and consent-oriented sex education is something children should be taught at a young age.
Buffy fears that sex with Spike is a sign that she's evil.
YES. It's in part because, well, Spike is evil, and what does it say about her that she is attracted to someone evil? Does it mean she condones all his evildoing? But yes, she is absolutely scared of her own sexual desires.
Dru plays of helpless little girl until What's My Line when she is "healed"; then she puts on a red dress, flirts openly with "Daddy" and sides with Angelus in his scheme to end the world.
Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
She's no longer just wacko
Y'know, an aside about Dru & mental illness would be really interesting. Actually, I just remembered a Spuffy fic I read: an AU wherein it was decided Buffy had to flee Sunnydale to escape a Quentin Travers who had gone completely megalomanic, and then Giles got still-evil!Spike as her bodyguard and lured him with a magical artifact which could "cure" Drusilla of her mental illness (for the sake of being together 5eva, of course). Towards the end of the fic, one of the perils Buffy faced was a poison which warped her perceptions to the point of making her suicidal. Of course, she and Spike had fallen in love at that point and Spike used the artifact to cure Buffy instead. There was an interesting thought in there about how Drusilla's illness was arguably a part of her personality (in the sense that it she had been driven to illness by Angelus even before becoming a vampire, and then fixed in that state forever), to the extent that "curing" her just like that might perhaps be considered a violation, or at least Spike trying to mold her according to his desires; whereas Buffy had clearly been poisoned. Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.
but dangerous in her own right. In School Hard she kills "bad girl" Sheila; in Becoming she kills the virginal, inexperienced Kendra. Women are supposed to be good girls, but if they remain innocent they are also increasing the risk of being victimized so damned either way, right?
Re: 2/3, actually.red_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 00:36:48 UTC
I just looked up Alice's website, which focuses on Child abuse. She was born in 1923 in Switzerland and is still alive http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php I think the book I referenced is "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" revised 1998; I'd like to read more of her books though; they all focus on child abuse, and she's revised some of them in 1997, including her most famous "Drama of the gifted child". I suspect the copy I read was the original edition from 15 years previously. http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=3
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect.
True,- there are biblical injunctions against "spilling the seed" but it doesn't actually refer to masturbation itself but pulling out of intercourse before inseminating the woman and thus "wasting" it. But that was extended to masturbation later on. Ok, how did we get on this subject? My bad. True fact - the first electric vibrators were invented in the 19th century and were used by Doctors to provoke "paroxysms" in their female patients (ie orgasms) which were thought to "release" the pressures of hysteria and such. *lol*
Oh honey, I'm so sorry. :( *hugs and loves on* I think for me personally, having grown up in the 90s, it was better.
Thank you, sweetie *hugs back* . It did occur to me that I was getting TMI, so I hope I didn't offend. It's really important to me though - not something I talk about but something that was really sort of mind-blowing in a way; there I was, a smart, well-read, all-A college student in the late 20th century and here I didn't know my own body. It was sobering. So I'm really happy to hear that it's getting better and I hope it continues to do so. (BTW - if you grew up in the '90's are you old enough that we can be having this conversation? *lol*)
I had and have my own hangups with "being a good girl" etc.
YES. the good girl syndrome. I was the good daughter, my younger sister the "bad girl" by comparison (not bad, but tough and sassy and smoked etc. I used to envy her boldness.) Sort of like good slayer/bad slayer? Maybe that's another reason I identify with Buffy. But that perception of oneself as a "good girl" can be very limiting/damaging (Another good example is Michelle Pfieffer as Selina Kyle/Catwoman in Batman Returns, which to me is an iconic performance. she's a good girl who breaks out of that after being resurrected, damaged much like Buffy. So she's sort of Buffy and Faith rolled into one, I guess.)
I definitely think that open, shame-free and consent-oriented sex education is something children should be taught at a young age.
PREACH IT. But given the fact that sex education itself is STILL controversial in the US thanks to conservative forces in this country, that's a long ways away. I think it just makes plain damn sense though.
Spike is evil, and what does it say about her that she is attracted to someone evil? Does it mean she condones all his evildoing?
You'd enjoy the convo I'm having with infinitewhale on the subject of Buffy and Spike (we can talk a blue streak let me tell you *lol*) http://infinitewhale.livejournal.com/29995.html?thread=385579&#t385579 the "what does it say about her?" is very much in play, in terms of 1) Angel didn't love her without a soul, how could Spike possibly do? It's not something she can wrap her mind around. Did that mean that he could love her but chose not to? 2) The "normal guy" (Riley) left her, Angel left her after he had his soul back, Giles left knowing the pain she was in, so what DOES it say about her that the only one who "wants her" is Spike? How broken and fucked-up must she be? 3) Becoming a demon has been one of her primary fears the entire series (Nightmares) : the fear of being abandoned, cut off (physically and emotionally), losing her humanity, etc. Spike preys upon her at her lowest point emotionally and keys right into her fears.
Re: 2/3, actually.red_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 00:37:55 UTC
But definitely Joss has some regressive and screwed-up idea about women's sexuality. the spacefrak is the most knife-in-the-gut example of this I can imagine. But it's there all along. the original idea for the series was for the "Blond in the alley" in a horror movie to fight back against the monster, but WTTH also opens with a female monster, Darla, who is Buffy's first Dark mirror, and who kills (consumes) a boy.
Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
Amirite? not funny in a ha-ha way, more like a sick joke.
Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.
Huh. That fic does sound like it raises interesting questions. I sort of like fics that deal with Buffy's mental issues if they can do so in a substantial way, and not just use it as an excuse for Spike to get to be the big manly hero and Buffy the damsel in distress - again. ( WHY is that the dynamic in so many fics?) And Spike still being evil but he and Buffy falling in love? Is usually a "meh" for me, but I might be interested in glancing at it anyway if you find the link. I don't think I've seen a fic linking Dru and Buffy's mental states like that.
In terms of the nature of it - that really is something I have to ponder. I had my first bout of "suicidal ideations" in my 20's, but I know I was most likely very depressed as a teenager, angry and expressing it in overeating, mostly. Sort of friendless (and yes that does sound pathetic); closed-off because of the abuse, etc etc. I didn't find out about my father's mental illness until my teens, and it was pretty shattering news. Suddenly it became a part of me, somehow, that I was stained with it as well; I started reading books on mental illness but was also afraid of going insane for a time. Or maybe that was normal adolescent stuff, who knows? Would i rather be without it? Oh yes. Is that possible? IDK. I thought maybe I was suicidal or depressed because I was unemployed, my life was awful, blah blah but then I hear about a famous actor or author or someone like Spaulding Grey who has resources at his disposal, is working on achieving closure with old traumas, and yet tries or succeeds in committing suicide. why did some people survive the concentration camps better than others, with their spirits unbroken?
3/3 what is this post even becominglanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 17:45:29 UTC
Makes sense. And I love the way these images can serve as wordless metas, like one I saw that compares Willow killing the deer in Bargaining with Tara's death, which - WOW. A picture really is worth a thousand words. (And now when I try to find the link in my bookmarks of course I can't.)
That's true! A really good photo- or gifset with well-chosen images can be quite powerful in its own right. I saw one ages ago that compared the morning-afters in Innocence and Wrecked and two other similarly parallel scenes, I think. It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 3 2013, 18:08:45 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure" - which is both nifty 'cause I love me some S7 Buffy&Spike BUT
- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becominglanoyeeJuly 3 2013, 18:43:46 UTC
I've had in mind for quite some time to compare Surprise/ GD with Smashed and Chosen, because those relationships run in opposite trajectories and the physical match between Buffy beneath Angel as he feeds on her and Spike beneath Buffy as she "takes her pleasure"
Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.
It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
MYSTERIES OVER MYSTERIES. Come to think of it, the relationships of the Scoobies are usually only compared insofar as that they all end tragically, aren't they? Maybe there's more to unearth here.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
I do think some fans view Riley as at fault, but it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not. You're right though: Riley does give her that last push toward believing herself a complete destroyer of love, doesn't he? :( Guh it's so unfair. Especially since I think she is very affectionate toward him and he just ignores that in favor of letting his insecures talk and warp things to a point where he thinks he's hardly more than a nice sextoy to her (b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey).
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:37:01 UTC
I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
Re: 3/3 what is this post even becomingred_satin_dollJuly 5 2013, 20:53:13 UTC
just be glad you're not Spike, honey
Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
MOULIN ROUGE ASIDE CHRISTIAN IS A DICK. 8( Seriously, a few years ago I rewatched the movie after a long time and at first I was like "d'awww what a cutie", but then I began to see how extremely preoccupied he is with his jealousy to the extent of not even noticing that Satine is coughing a lot. He never asks if she's okay and doesn't care so much about her as to what she is to him. And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And of course, she's the one in the wrong for having to fulfill a promise to her employer. Guhhhh.
THIS. Years ago a friend and I collaborated on a MR fanfic that starts at the point of the scene: "I don't want you to sleep with him" and goes AU from that. Unfortunately it's not only WIP but it's - longish and rather bad, and problematic in it's own right. (re: the evil homosexual aka the Duke.) I'm embarrassed now that I put so much time into the thing. But srsly - I don't want you to sleep with him? What about "Do you want to sleep with him?" What about her needs? Seriously, "I'll write a song!" has got to be the dumbest solution ever.
But jealousy is not something I ever really understood anyway; envy? Yes. Seeing someone else stronger, more confident, better off than myself and feeling ashamed I'm not more like them; but I don't want to take what they have away from them, I just wish I knew how to achieve it myself, or feel I deserve to. Jealousy to me is "I feel bad because I lack (whatever) or have a hang-up about (whatever) and therefore I have to control your behavior to ease my anxiety, I don't have this (whatever) therefore you shouldn't either."
And I've been on the receiving end of my sweetie's jealousy - which goes back to the breakup of her first major relationship. And it sucks being under the shadow of someone else's ghost (her ex died years ago so - major lack of closure). There's definitely been a sexual element to it.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And Angel, Xander, Spike - they all express jealousy at various times; its a form of policing Buffy's sexuality, her body, her very self and marking her as their territory in some way. Possessing her. Which again is why I like Buffy/Spike in S7, because it's the opposite of that. While Angel comes back in Chosen and is still policing her sexuality. As I said in my Buffy/Tara meta, that's why neither he nor Riley are worthy to be at her side in the end.
NO YOU ♥
Btw I've been getting notifs of you mentioning me all over the place over time and I just think it is so cute. :)
Yes, but it started small (Buffybot in Bargaining and "I'll chop her into messes") and has grown from there to include Edvard Munch, and Sheila, and the notion of Dru and Buffy as "seers" but also women and madness in the verse, and - yeah. I'm beginning to think I'm biting off more than I can chew. Maybe I need to cut it in half or do it in parts.
GO FOR IT this sounds super interesting and like a facet that hasn't been explored a lot yet. Though Dru and Buffy have often been paralleled, but the focus on how they affected by Angelus/what role they played in relation to him. (I.e. Drusilla as a prototype for what he planned with Buffy in S2.) I'd really love to see a focus on them as "seers".
This is really a challenge for me because I'm used to writing metas, whereas picspam-metas are sort of new (I know they are pretty common on tumblr. Or maybe it's a generational thing?) The Buffy & Joyce one is nice but I'd been planning that for a while, and I thought it'd get more comments, actually. Maybe there need to be more words, more actual "meta" to generate conversation? IDK
Hmm, yeah, in my experience people mostly just make picspams or gifsets which then... get reblogged a lot. Occasionally someone will decide to meta based on them, sometimes entirely in the tags, but it seems pretty rare? But yeah, tumblr is originally an image blog site so it lends itself to that. Personally I do like a bit of written meta to go off of, otherwise I just tend to go "ohhh nice pictures". Oops.
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I just am big on the linking and referencing - I guess that's what I learned in college. Well, everyone did when it comes to that, but I guess it's natural to me? Like, someone mentions a subject and I know someone else has written about it or I was just having that same conversation with someone else? Referring to that person/post seems easier than reconstructing the conversation, whether or not that person actually looks at it. And also when I like someone's writing or artwork or ideas and I think more people should know about them and join the conversation.
Anyhoo, I can live with "cute". *lol*
Though Dru and Buffy have often been paralleled, but the focus on how they affected by Angelus/what role they played in relation to him.
I almost think of the men more generically in some ways if that makes sense? Like, this could become Spike-centric and I'm trying to avoid that, but I haven't thought about Angelus all that much.
(I.e. Drusilla as a prototype for what he planned with Buffy in S2.)
I think 2maggie2 et al cover that quite a bit in the episode notes on her LJ. Buffy's also paralleled (obviously) with Darla, but I haven't watched AtS and I don't think someone can talk about Darla at this point without doing so.
infinitewhale told me that Joss is freaked out by love scenes and hasn't directed one since "Amends" - which would explain a LOT. Because that fear of female sexuality is very Victorian, and a lot of btvs and the treatment of female sexuality in it makes sense. even with the comics. It reminds me of the creation of the femme fatale in the late 19th century by men who were nervous about feminism, about immigrants and blacks, who made women monstrous, the whole saving one's seed and copulating only for reproduction, blah blah bitty blah....Being afraid of female sexuality, imaging vaginas have little teeth, that men will be devoured as helpless victims, is the most bizarre notion to me. A professor from Scotland jokingly called it "sexy death" but it's a pretty sick joke.
If someone is afraid of female sexuality, if they're afraid of sex, then that indicates to me a fear of life, not death, or a confusion of the two because sexuality (and sensuality) are core components of life. We wouldn't be here without it, right?
And if Joss is likewise freaked out by love scenes, by female sexuality, then how can he make or be expected to make a truly "empowering" story for and about women? He shows his hand all over the place - in the opening act of WTTH, in Darla and Dru, in Sheila and Faith as "bad girls", in sexuality being Buffy's undoing over and over again, and she ends up the series in a chaste relationship, in Joyce dying right after she goes on a date with a man for the first time in the series entirely of her own free will, in Tara being shot to death in Joyce's bedroom after making love to Willow....
Like you said, when Joss is good he's great but when he fails it's EPIC. And the sad thing is, the dude seems to be unaware of this, or unwilling to have this pointed out to him.
I'd really love to see a focus on them as "seers".
I also feel inadequate to the task, but maybe just mentioning it will be enough to get the ball rolling?
But yeah, tumblr is originally an image blog site so it lends itself to that.
Makes sense. And I love the way these images can serve as wordless metas, like one I saw that compares Willow killing the deer in Bargaining with Tara's death, which - WOW. A picture really is worth a thousand words. (And now when I try to find the link in my bookmarks of course I can't.)
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*nodnod* I see what you mean! Interesting that that is your immediate association upon my comment though. 8D Ahhh, college. It's gonna stay with me forever, isn't it.
And also when I like someone's writing or artwork or ideas and I think more people should know about them and join the conversation.
So I guess what I mean by "cute" is also "heartwarming" -- because it does so warm my heart that you think my ideas are share-worthy. :) I am actually really shy about voicing my ideas because I have no confidence in them, which is one of the big personal problems I'm currently grappling with, I think. With you, though? I'm really comfortable discussing things. So thank you for being awesome. ♥
I almost think of the men more generically in some ways if that makes sense? Like, this could become Spike-centric and I'm trying to avoid that, but I haven't thought about Angelus all that much.
Which is something I do not mind at all. I love Spike as much as the next Spuffy shipper, but there is quite enough out there about him. Let Dru get some spotlight!
I think 2maggie2 et al cover that quite a bit in the episode notes on her LJ. Buffy's also paralleled (obviously) with Darla, but I haven't watched AtS and I don't think someone can talk about Darla at this point without doing so.
She did! I've read some stuff here and there about how Darla is a proto-Buffy, or Buffy is actually a stand-in for Darla -- something to that effect. I did watch AtS not that long ago, but I still don't feel like I have a clear enough memory of the Darla arc to really comment on it so much. :[ What is interesting though -- Darla tries to take his soul by having sex with him, and when he still has it afterwards, she is upset and comments that "that was perfect" and Angel replies that yes, it was: perfect despair. In which I don't think it's as simple as Buffy good, Darla bad, so. CLOSER INVESTIGATIONS MUST BE PERFORMED.
infinitewhale told me that Joss is freaked out by love scenes and hasn't directed one since "Amends" - which would explain a LOT.
Huh. I didn't know that. It does explain a lot. Though I think I remember that Joss said on the DVD commentary to Innocence that he wanted to explore Buffy's sexuality without getting exploitative. So maybe it's not even that his heart is in that wrong a place, but his issues sure do get in the way.
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I don't know that it was an IMMEDIATE association, maybe me grasping for straws actually. Lots of people in this fandom have gone to college and don't do that, so I guess it's just a "me" thing. But my brain likes connections; even when I was in college and gave house parties, I would try to invite people from all the "different areas" of my life who didn't know each other already, and it usually made things more interesting. More connections made. Like, "cross-curriculum" but the social RL version. ;)
So I guess what I mean by "cute" is also "heartwarming" -- because it does so warm my heart that you think my ideas are share-worthy.
It's really hard for me to accept compliments! But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them.
I am actually really shy about voicing my ideas because I have no confidence in them, which is one of the big personal problems I'm currently grappling with, I think.
That's me in a nutshell! And I've been grappling with it for decades, and sometimes I have more confidence in myself, and then something happens and it feels like the rug is pulled from under me and I go back into hiding. I think self-confidence is something that pretty much got hammered out of me when I was young.
With you, though? I'm really comfortable discussing things. So thank you for being awesome. ♥
*BLUSHES* I feel exactly the same way with you, dear. I'm glad you feel safe here, that's really important to me, and I love our conversations.
I love Spike as much as the next Spuffy shipper, but there is quite enough out there about him. Let Dru get some spotlight!
AMEN
So maybe it's not even that his heart is in that wrong a place, but his issues sure do get in the way.
That sounds about right. I take everything Joss says with a barrel of salt, though.
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If someone is afraid of female sexuality, if they're afraid of sex, then that indicates to me a fear of life, not death, or a confusion of the two because sexuality (and sensuality) are core components of life. We wouldn't be here without it, right?
True! And yet, sex is so often conflated with death (see: Freud. See also: why I can't take Freud seriously). Which I feel is strongly connected to all that stuff you mentioned in your previous paragraph and is a very male-centric view: the fear of losing yourself in sex, succumbing helplessly to a woman's mysterious wiles.
But it goes the other way around too, doesn't it? I mean, into whom is the lesson that sex is scary and dangerous pounded more vigorously than into young girls? When we talk about the first sexual experience of girls/women, it's in terms of "popping the cherry", "tearing the hymen", "busting a virgin". All horrifyingly violent imagery.
And if Joss is likewise freaked out by love scenes, by female sexuality, then how can he make or be expected to make a truly "empowering" story for and about women? He shows his hand all over the place - in the opening act of WTTH, in Darla and Dru, in Sheila and Faith as "bad girls", in sexuality being Buffy's undoing over and over again, and she ends up the series in a chaste relationship, in Joyce dying right after she goes on a date with a man for the first time in the series entirely of her own free will, in Tara being shot to death in Joyce's bedroom after making love to Willow....
Wow. When you list up all of this, it really is incredibly creepy. The whole conflation of "sexual = bad" in female characters has also bothered me a lot. Or the other way around, that you can tell a woman is evil by how openly sexual it is. Add to that S6 and the implication that frequent and intense sex and kink are connected to mental illness, and I'm just about done. Which is why I do love Buffy's little throw-away line about oil-wrestling in Chosen; it's mere crumbs, but a tiny hint that a more mentally balanced Buffy is still kinky as hell. :P (Also she is totally a slasher, which amuses me to no end. I have the beginning of an early-seasons fic in which Willow explains the wonders of slash to Buffy sitting around on my hard drive.)
I also feel inadequate to the task, but maybe just mentioning it will be enough to get the ball rolling?
Who knows? Maybe someone will catch on that.
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I've read a couple of Alice Miller's books (author of "the Drama of the Gifted Child") including the one in which she outlined why she was no longer a Freudian psychotherapist: she began to take a good hard look at the sexism of her field and Freud's theories. His original ideas had been much more "feminist" in nature and I'd say more accurate; he took his patients' reports of sexual abuse much more seriously, but was encouraged by peers to alter his theories to fit current male-dominated ideas: female patients were hysterical, in love with their fathers and making it all up. I was in a performance art class in college when one of the other students did a performance spouting ridiculous notions about women, as if she were a man, and we were all laughing at the stupidity of the ideas until we began to realize that she was reciting Freud; then an uneasy hush fell over the class. Ouch.
I mean, into whom is the lesson that sex is scary and dangerous pounded more vigorously than into young girls? ....All horrifyingly violent imagery.
True, women were taught to avoid sex until marriage, that their sexuality only existed for their husband's pleasure and use, that men are monsters as well. There is a difference though in that men have been encouraged to claim their sexual pleasure, they've gone to whores, they've learned to masturbate and it's either been considered acceptable or at least people looked the other way because, you know, they can't help themselves. Women have been discouraged from claiming and enjoying their sexuality - they were unclean etc and men did awful things simply because women existed. Our bodies, our genitals, our menstruation, is a dirty shameful secret. I never heard the worlds "labia" & "clictoris" until i was in college in the late '80's. "Down there" was the source of blood, piss and shit, someplace dirty and forbidden. It was near the area my stepfather spanked me with a belt: no positive associations there. My professor, a man in his 60's, quietly handed me a book on masturbation for women by a female doctor when I asked him "what are these?", and it was scary at first but I think also amazing and liberating. I loved it when I came across a sort of picture book a couple of decades later, "Care and feeding of your clitoris" aimed at preteen girls, because that's something I would want to give to all girls, to teach them, preferably before they were teens.
it's in terms of "popping the cherry",
I saw Buffy's cherry print dress in Restless and nearly shouted "You've GOT to be fucking kidding me."
you can tell a woman is evil by how openly sexual it is.
YES. Darla, Sheila in School Hard, Dru, Faith, etc. Buffy fears that sex with Spike is a sign that she's evil. Dru plays of helpless little girl until What's My Line when she is "healed"; then she puts on a red dress, flirts openly with "Daddy" and sides with Angelus in his scheme to end the world. She's no longer just wacko but dangerous in her own right. In School Hard she kills "bad girl" Sheila; in Becoming she kills the virginal, inexperienced Kendra. Women are supposed to be good girls, but if they remain innocent they are also increasing the risk of being victimized so damned either way, right?
Add to that S6 and the implication that frequent and intense sex and kink are connected to mental illness, and I'm just about done.
PREACH
Which is why I do love Buffy's little throw-away line about oil-wrestling in Chosen; it's mere crumbs, but a tiny hint that a more mentally balanced Buffy is still kinky as hell. :P
Exactly. For once it's not a joke at her expense. Which is why I hated the webcomic where her nightmare is about Angel and Spike kissing one another and ignoring her ; I know it's meant to be a nightmare but it's played for laughs, at Buffy's expense. The spacefrak is played as a joke as well. that's just ugly and regressive. So many problems here, so little time.
I have the beginning of an early-seasons fic in which Willow explains the wonders of slash to Buffy sitting around on my hard drive.
I totally support this project. :)
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Ow. Ow. Ouch indeed.
His original ideas had been much more "feminist" in nature and I'd say more accurate; he took his patients' reports of sexual abuse much more seriously, but was encouraged by peers to alter his theories to fit current male-dominated ideas
That is really interesting, actually. I'll have to look her up.
they've learned to masturbate
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect. Of course, I doubt that at that time, people were aware female masturbation was even possible, because no way would a woman have sexual urges unless she's a whore, of course. :|
Our bodies, our genitals, our menstruation, is a dirty shameful secret. I never heard the worlds "labia" & "clictoris" until i was in college in the late '80's. "Down there" was the source of blood, piss and shit, someplace dirty and forbidden. It was near the area my stepfather spanked me with a belt: no positive associations there.
Oh honey, I'm so sorry. :( *hugs and loves on* I think for me personally, having grown up in the 90s, it was better. I was still scandalized at masturbation when I first learned about it, but then I was also a strange kid. I learned about it in an article praising its advantages for women especially and pleading for more acceptance and less shame, no less! But somehow I had this thing where no matter how it was treated, if I learned about something taboo I would mostly pick up the taboo factor. I had and have my own hangups with "being a good girl" etc.
I loved it when I came across a sort of picture book a couple of decades later, "Care and feeding of your clitoris" aimed at preteen girls, because that's something I would want to give to all girls, to teach them, preferably before they were teens.
Oh, that sounds like a great book! I definitely think that open, shame-free and consent-oriented sex education is something children should be taught at a young age.
Buffy fears that sex with Spike is a sign that she's evil.
YES. It's in part because, well, Spike is evil, and what does it say about her that she is attracted to someone evil? Does it mean she condones all his evildoing? But yes, she is absolutely scared of her own sexual desires.
Dru plays of helpless little girl until What's My Line when she is "healed"; then she puts on a red dress, flirts openly with "Daddy" and sides with Angelus in his scheme to end the world.
Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
She's no longer just wacko
Y'know, an aside about Dru & mental illness would be really interesting. Actually, I just remembered a Spuffy fic I read: an AU wherein it was decided Buffy had to flee Sunnydale to escape a Quentin Travers who had gone completely megalomanic, and then Giles got still-evil!Spike as her bodyguard and lured him with a magical artifact which could "cure" Drusilla of her mental illness (for the sake of being together 5eva, of course). Towards the end of the fic, one of the perils Buffy faced was a poison which warped her perceptions to the point of making her suicidal. Of course, she and Spike had fallen in love at that point and Spike used the artifact to cure Buffy instead. There was an interesting thought in there about how Drusilla's illness was arguably a part of her personality (in the sense that it she had been driven to illness by Angelus even before becoming a vampire, and then fixed in that state forever), to the extent that "curing" her just like that might perhaps be considered a violation, or at least Spike trying to mold her according to his desires; whereas Buffy had clearly been poisoned. Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.
but dangerous in her own right. In School Hard she kills "bad girl" Sheila; in Becoming she kills the virginal, inexperienced Kendra. Women are supposed to be good girls, but if they remain innocent they are also increasing the risk of being victimized so damned either way, right?
PRETTY MUCH.
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http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php I think the book I referenced is "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" revised 1998; I'd like to read more of her books though; they all focus on child abuse, and she's revised some of them in 1997, including her most famous "Drama of the gifted child". I suspect the copy I read was the original edition from 15 years previously.
http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=3
Wasn't male masturbation extremely frowned upon for a while, though? I think I read/heard things to that effect.
True,- there are biblical injunctions against "spilling the seed" but it doesn't actually refer to masturbation itself but pulling out of intercourse before inseminating the woman and thus "wasting" it. But that was extended to masturbation later on. Ok, how did we get on this subject? My bad. True fact - the first electric vibrators were invented in the 19th century and were used by Doctors to provoke "paroxysms" in their female patients (ie orgasms) which were thought to "release" the pressures of hysteria and such. *lol*
Oh honey, I'm so sorry. :( *hugs and loves on* I think for me personally, having grown up in the 90s, it was better.
Thank you, sweetie *hugs back* . It did occur to me that I was getting TMI, so I hope I didn't offend. It's really important to me though - not something I talk about but something that was really sort of mind-blowing in a way; there I was, a smart, well-read, all-A college student in the late 20th century and here I didn't know my own body. It was sobering. So I'm really happy to hear that it's getting better and I hope it continues to do so. (BTW - if you grew up in the '90's are you old enough that we can be having this conversation? *lol*)
I had and have my own hangups with "being a good girl" etc.
YES. the good girl syndrome. I was the good daughter, my younger sister the "bad girl" by comparison (not bad, but tough and sassy and smoked etc. I used to envy her boldness.) Sort of like good slayer/bad slayer? Maybe that's another reason I identify with Buffy. But that perception of oneself as a "good girl" can be very limiting/damaging (Another good example is Michelle Pfieffer as Selina Kyle/Catwoman in Batman Returns, which to me is an iconic performance. she's a good girl who breaks out of that after being resurrected, damaged much like Buffy. So she's sort of Buffy and Faith rolled into one, I guess.)
I definitely think that open, shame-free and consent-oriented sex education is something children should be taught at a young age.
PREACH IT. But given the fact that sex education itself is STILL controversial in the US thanks to conservative forces in this country, that's a long ways away. I think it just makes plain damn sense though.
Spike is evil, and what does it say about her that she is attracted to someone evil? Does it mean she condones all his evildoing?
You'd enjoy the convo I'm having with infinitewhale on the subject of Buffy and Spike (we can talk a blue streak let me tell you *lol*) http://infinitewhale.livejournal.com/29995.html?thread=385579&#t385579 the "what does it say about her?" is very much in play, in terms of 1) Angel didn't love her without a soul, how could Spike possibly do? It's not something she can wrap her mind around. Did that mean that he could love her but chose not to? 2) The "normal guy" (Riley) left her, Angel left her after he had his soul back, Giles left knowing the pain she was in, so what DOES it say about her that the only one who "wants her" is Spike? How broken and fucked-up must she be? 3) Becoming a demon has been one of her primary fears the entire series (Nightmares) : the fear of being abandoned, cut off (physically and emotionally), losing her humanity, etc. Spike preys upon her at her lowest point emotionally and keys right into her fears.
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Funnily enough: how Freudian. :[
Amirite? not funny in a ha-ha way, more like a sick joke.
Which, of course, raises questions about the nature of mental illness itself.
Huh. That fic does sound like it raises interesting questions. I sort of like fics that deal with Buffy's mental issues if they can do so in a substantial way, and not just use it as an excuse for Spike to get to be the big manly hero and Buffy the damsel in distress - again. ( WHY is that the dynamic in so many fics?) And Spike still being evil but he and Buffy falling in love? Is usually a "meh" for me, but I might be interested in glancing at it anyway if you find the link. I don't think I've seen a fic linking Dru and Buffy's mental states like that.
In terms of the nature of it - that really is something I have to ponder. I had my first bout of "suicidal ideations" in my 20's, but I know I was most likely very depressed as a teenager, angry and expressing it in overeating, mostly. Sort of friendless (and yes that does sound pathetic); closed-off because of the abuse, etc etc. I didn't find out about my father's mental illness until my teens, and it was pretty shattering news. Suddenly it became a part of me, somehow, that I was stained with it as well; I started reading books on mental illness but was also afraid of going insane for a time. Or maybe that was normal adolescent stuff, who knows? Would i rather be without it? Oh yes. Is that possible? IDK. I thought maybe I was suicidal or depressed because I was unemployed, my life was awful, blah blah but then I hear about a famous actor or author or someone like Spaulding Grey who has resources at his disposal, is working on achieving closure with old traumas, and yet tries or succeeds in committing suicide. why did some people survive the concentration camps better than others, with their spirits unbroken?
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That's true! A really good photo- or gifset with well-chosen images can be quite powerful in its own right. I saw one ages ago that compared the morning-afters in Innocence and Wrecked and two other similarly parallel scenes, I think. It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
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- there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense. Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
It really highlighted for me how much Buffy was dealing out the pain that was once dealt to her in her relationship with Spike.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
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Ohh, yes! Definitely. Also -- I was gonna say that the person beneath offers themselves in both cases, but that is more the case for Spike in the alley scene in DT, which is not sexual in nature.
there's the old punishment of female sexuality again; a woman must be tamed, domesticated (to the love and service of a man) or die. And sometimes she is tamed but dies anyway (Satine in Moulin Rouge for ex.) Buffy becomes "Virgin" again in a spiritual sense.
It is so gross. :( Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
Willow/Tara also runs in an opposite trajectory and Tara dies after she fully voices her sexual desires without timidity, when she becomes a more confident woman.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
And why isn't all of fandom squeeing over the resemblances between the hands imagery in Hush and Chosen, and the FtB in both NMR & Chosen? (Aside from the fact that it's a cop-out - which is actually something else they share in common.)
MYSTERIES OVER MYSTERIES. Come to think of it, the relationships of the Scoobies are usually only compared insofar as that they all end tragically, aren't they? Maybe there's more to unearth here.
Yeah, it's so extremely complicated. And I'll add Riley into the mix. I've mentioned on my own LJ (did I already tell you this) and other's that Riley's ultimatum and rejection of her love, his abandonment and betrayal cut her on a really deep level, but all the focus is on what Angel did to her in fandom and in some ways the show itself. I'll always insist that before that she saw herself (S4) as being drawn to bad boys and believing pain was part of a relationship but still seeing herself as being capable of loving and being in a relationship, to believing that she was becoming hard and believing that her mother died not knowing if Buffy loved her. And the show itself seems to support that view. WTF?? That to me is a massive emotional injury and it doesn't get talked about. Either people tend to have little interest in Riley, or they see her as causing the break up.
I do think some fans view Riley as at fault, but it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not. You're right though: Riley does give her that last push toward believing herself a complete destroyer of love, doesn't he? :( Guh it's so unfair. Especially since I think she is very affectionate toward him and he just ignores that in favor of letting his insecures talk and warp things to a point where he thinks he's hardly more than a nice sextoy to her (b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey).
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THe alley scene in DT is not overtly sexual in nature but it's tied into the darkness and perversity of the relationship.
Though, I wonder if it can't also be said that Spike is "tamed" in this case as well? One thing that is so fascinating about Buffy and Spike is how both of them take both "masculine" and "feminine" roles at different points in the relationship.
Interesting. I think some fans already see him as "pussywhipped" by his lovers (Dru and Buffy) although that ignores the way in which he is also controlling in the relationships; compared to Angelus he is "tamed" by his lovers, then "tamed" by the chip but only so far; I love Buffy's statement "It's like having him in a muzzle." Such a difference from her view in S4-6. So there's a "taming" that goes on with Buffy and Spike aside from the chip, but there's also a sense of the opposite, of release back into a new sense of himself, the (hu)man and the demon making peace with one another, which is also what happens with Buffy. they are both "tamed" by one another? There's something very domestic about S7, being almost entirely within the Summers house.
Also, how would you view Buffy kissing Angel in Chosen in this context?
The kiss itself? Eh. Basically a moment of nostalgia and fantasy. Because their relationship never was simple or easy, but it's been blurred by the haze of time. She can be 16 again for a moment, but you notice how briefly it lasts: "Ok, I'm done basking; what are you doing here." And she's back to business.
Yes. That one is really obvious and stark. And doubly awful since her desires are for another woman. So they're not just punishing the woman, they're punishing the lesbian. Tara can exist as a lesbian as long as she's timid about it and subordinate to Willow, who notably does not get punished in the same way.
Right. One might say that losing Tara is the punishment but then she is "rewarded" with Kennedy, and with the new sense of self and connection that comes from the Slayer Spell. It's interesting - although surely intentional - Willow's sexuality is more fluid than Tara's; she can be read as bisexual (I think everyone is to a degree), but Tara is 100% lesbian. That's how I read her; that is there is nothing in canon to indicate otherwise. She was the one who pursued Willow, who was aware of her own attraction and desire for another woman in Hush. So somehow that makes her death that much worse.
it is true that the extent of the impact the breakup with him had on her psyche is not really addressed. And often the focus still is on whether she truly loved him or not.
And I DON"T. GET. IT. on either count. did NO one watch OOMM?
The issue isn't that Buffy is cold; she shuts herself off because she has such a wealth of feeling and is so "full of love" (as the First Slayer says) that it literally hurts to love, after so much trauma.
b/c let's be real, that's what he was thinking; just be glad you're not Spike, honey
the scene in S5 where Riley is bitching to SPIKE about Buffy, and they are comparing notes? Or with Xander? GMAFB BTW, I found another Dawn/Riley comparison in Potential today and realized it's ITW all over again; lots of shots of poor, neglected Dawnie with big puppy dogs eyes just like the ones of Riley in S5 because Buffy's so closed-off. And she is pretty harsh but as in S5 she has a LOT of responsibility pretty much all on her shoulders again. I have a lot more sympathy for Dawn of course (because she's awesome in that episode) but once again it ends with one of Xander's stupid speeches that we're supposed to take as truth. Ugh
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Oh yeah and it's galling because Spike is NOT in a relationship with her at the time, it's all fantasy on his part and delusion on Riley's part. Men *pfft*
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... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
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THIS. Years ago a friend and I collaborated on a MR fanfic that starts at the point of the scene: "I don't want you to sleep with him" and goes AU from that. Unfortunately it's not only WIP but it's - longish and rather bad, and problematic in it's own right. (re: the evil homosexual aka the Duke.) I'm embarrassed now that I put so much time into the thing. But srsly - I don't want you to sleep with him? What about "Do you want to sleep with him?" What about her needs? Seriously, "I'll write a song!" has got to be the dumbest solution ever.
But jealousy is not something I ever really understood anyway; envy? Yes. Seeing someone else stronger, more confident, better off than myself and feeling ashamed I'm not more like them; but I don't want to take what they have away from them, I just wish I knew how to achieve it myself, or feel I deserve to. Jealousy to me is "I feel bad because I lack (whatever) or have a hang-up about (whatever) and therefore I have to control your behavior to ease my anxiety, I don't have this (whatever) therefore you shouldn't either."
And I've been on the receiving end of my sweetie's jealousy - which goes back to the breakup of her first major relationship. And it sucks being under the shadow of someone else's ghost (her ex died years ago so - major lack of closure). There's definitely been a sexual element to it.
... it's kind of similar to the Buffy/Riley situation in a way, isn't it.
And Angel, Xander, Spike - they all express jealousy at various times; its a form of policing Buffy's sexuality, her body, her very self and marking her as their territory in some way. Possessing her. Which again is why I like Buffy/Spike in S7, because it's the opposite of that. While Angel comes back in Chosen and is still policing her sexuality. As I said in my Buffy/Tara meta, that's why neither he nor Riley are worthy to be at her side in the end.
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