And just so much YES to your Riley & Dawn thoughts. I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do. I was kept my comments rather brief here (for me anyway) in case I did post a longer meta but we're pretty much thinking along the same lines here.
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do.
Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
fray_adjacent12 just rec'd this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point: http://archiveofourown.org/works/88341/chapters/119654?page=1&show_comments=true#comment_3538737
Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
That's me all the time. I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
Reply
Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
Sure, go ahead!
Reply
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F
Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
Reply
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