NOW. Here's what I originally wrote in reply to your comment where you compared Blood Ties and Into the Woods:
"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
ANYWAY, so. Riley's self-harm is also a betrayal and interpreted as such by Buffy; thus her reaction is anger and jealousy. Meanwhile, Dawn can't betray her because in this situation, Buffy is the traitor by neglecting to be open with Dawn about her origin. And even if the betrayal had somehow been on Dawn's side, a reconciliation would have come fast because the strong familial bonds dictate it. Again, sisterly love trumps all. Though I actually wonder: at the and of Into the Woods, Buffy runs to the platform as Riley flies away -- also a first step towards reconciliation. Had Riley stayed, things might have been tense for a while, but Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers. It seems Buffy doesn't even make such a great distinction between family and lovers, or, for that matter, friends. Which is, of course, in part because she's so terribly, terribly afraid of rocking the boat. So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
-- and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast. My bias shows, sob.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self (a thought also explored in sci fi/cyberpunk works). So here's the obvious conflict of, if Dawn has only existed as a physical presence in the world for six months, is what her mind, her memories tell her void? Is her very self a void? Because if she was created by someone else, and such a short time ago, there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn. Please, let me not be something that is shaped by what is done to it (and I use "thing" and "it" purposefully here -- is Buffy's overprotectiveness of Dawn in a way its own objectification? Certainly, it's keeping Dawn childlike). And because the Key was an object without consciousness (presumably - and isn't there an interesting thought?), Dawn also does not have access to her past as the Key at all, thus rendering both of her existences „unreal“."
... and that's how far I got. Seems to me like this train of thought is not yet concluded. :|a I was basically thinking while I was writing. Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what? Maggie Walsh is the one who betrayed Riley, who manipulated his blindly trusting "respect authority and don't ask questions" nature and put that chip in his heart. (Imagine if btvs had been set during the 1970's Nixon era, with Buffy & Willow as campus activists.) And he in turns betrays Buffy by attacking her most vunerable spot - her heart - as he did in Doomed.
Again, this COULD have been interesting, but the writers decided to make it ALL ABOUT BUFFY and ALL HER FAULT and just NO. As you say IT'S GROSS, and there is just no other word for it.
And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Thanks for the links! I enjoyed reading those metas. Because unjustified Buffy-blaming will never not be a sore spot. And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown. Which I think is what's uncomfortable about Buffy vs. Dracula -- because I feel it kind of WAS portrayed that way? Hell, that stereotype is associated with Buffy in ways where it is sometimes hard to see that nope, it isn't so simple. And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Oh, that is excellent. And I completely agree! Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown.
YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs a lantern on that before she wipes the floor with his undead ass. I can understand that Riley doesn't "get it" - in a sense, he's got this entitlement thing going on. He's a guy and was an exceptional one at that; now he's ordinary and all his shiny toys have been taken away (the patriarchs love their toys) except for Buffy. Hence the jealousy, which is an emotion that I've never been able to access. Envy? Yes. Jealousy? I've been on the receiving end a lot and it's very ugly and based entirely on that other person's insecurities.
ME implying that Buffy was being unfaithful to Riley while under thrall is pretty much the same thing as Dark Horse's claim that Buffy was responsible for her behavior during the spacefrak in S8, even while they showed her under the influence of a metaphorical "rape drug". So she was but she wasn't? That's utterly gross, and it shows where Joss' thinking is on the subject. FYI, you were talking about Kendra in another comment elsewhere, and I feel the same impatience when it's implied that falling under Dru's thrall is proof that Kendra is an inferior Slayer. WTF? Buffy was under the Master's thrall when he killed her in PG. Was that also her fault?
Whatever the problems with Buffy&Spike S6 in terms of in-story, one thing they mostly got right was that both of them had to take responsibility for their OWN actions. No thrall, no "the devil made me do it", no excuses.
Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
Part of the problem is that despite the songs and poems throughout time, most people across the centuries haven't married for love first and foremost. There was a reason for arranged marriages: the parents and the entire clan/tribe vetted the union. It was for financial/political gain, it was a business deal much of the time. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of real love, or people marrying for love, but that wasn't first and foremost. This is possible when women are mostly seen as property to be "bartered away" of course; but I don't think we have centuries of experience in "love" behind us, not the modern-day kind we're "supposed" to feel. And it's supposed to be automatic, easy, like a bag of potato chips, like we're supposed to have perfect Christmas dinners, etc; it's a great big lie guaranteed to keep us anxious and feeling like failures, expecting too much of ourselves and others: Be my spouse, my lover, my best friend, the housekeeper, the breadwinner, the babysitter; read my mind; love me as much as my parents did or you'll disappoint me; give me the love my parents never did or you'll disappoint me. I love you exactly the way your are, now let me fix you.
And just so much YES to your Riley & Dawn thoughts. I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do. I was kept my comments rather brief here (for me anyway) in case I did post a longer meta but we're pretty much thinking along the same lines here.
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do.
Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
ANYWAY, so. Riley's self-harm is also a betrayal and interpreted as such by Buffy; thus her reaction is anger and jealousy. Meanwhile, Dawn can't betray her because in this situation, Buffy is the traitor by neglecting to be open with Dawn about her origin. And even if the betrayal had somehow been on Dawn's side, a reconciliation would have come fast because the strong familial bonds dictate it. Again, sisterly love trumps all. Though I actually wonder: at the and of Into the Woods, Buffy runs to the platform as Riley flies away -- also a first step towards reconciliation. Had Riley stayed, things might have been tense for a while, but Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers. It seems Buffy doesn't even make such a great distinction between family and lovers, or, for that matter, friends. Which is, of course, in part because she's so terribly, terribly afraid of rocking the boat. So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
-- and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast. My bias shows, sob.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self (a thought also explored in sci fi/cyberpunk works). So here's the obvious conflict of, if Dawn has only existed as a physical presence in the world for six months, is what her mind, her memories tell her void? Is her very self a void? Because if she was created by someone else, and such a short time ago, there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn. Please, let me not be something that is shaped by what is done to it (and I use "thing" and "it" purposefully here -- is Buffy's overprotectiveness of Dawn in a way its own objectification? Certainly, it's keeping Dawn childlike). And because the Key was an object without consciousness (presumably - and isn't there an interesting thought?), Dawn also does not have access to her past as the Key at all, thus rendering both of her existences „unreal“."
... and that's how far I got. Seems to me like this train of thought is not yet concluded. :|a I was basically thinking while I was writing. Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
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http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2003/03/13/buffy-why-riley-is-not-a-nice-jock/
"In a way, season-five Riley was where Buffy writers began seriously examining misogyny among ordinary men..."
Also gabrielleabelle's breakdown of B/R S5: http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/354693.html
mcjulie's no-nonsense meta on ITW & I will forever love her bottom-line: "He cheated on her. Repeatedly. With professionals." http://mcjulie.livejournal.com/42869.html
I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what? Maggie Walsh is the one who betrayed Riley, who manipulated his blindly trusting "respect authority and don't ask questions" nature and put that chip in his heart. (Imagine if btvs had been set during the 1970's Nixon era, with Buffy & Willow as campus activists.) And he in turns betrays Buffy by attacking her most vunerable spot - her heart - as he did in Doomed.
Again, this COULD have been interesting, but the writers decided to make it ALL ABOUT BUFFY and ALL HER FAULT and just NO. As you say IT'S GROSS, and there is just no other word for it.
And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Grow up, get real or go home IOW.
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WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Oh, that is excellent. And I completely agree! Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
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YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs a lantern on that before she wipes the floor with his undead ass. I can understand that Riley doesn't "get it" - in a sense, he's got this entitlement thing going on. He's a guy and was an exceptional one at that; now he's ordinary and all his shiny toys have been taken away (the patriarchs love their toys) except for Buffy. Hence the jealousy, which is an emotion that I've never been able to access. Envy? Yes. Jealousy? I've been on the receiving end a lot and it's very ugly and based entirely on that other person's insecurities.
ME implying that Buffy was being unfaithful to Riley while under thrall is pretty much the same thing as Dark Horse's claim that Buffy was responsible for her behavior during the spacefrak in S8, even while they showed her under the influence of a metaphorical "rape drug". So she was but she wasn't? That's utterly gross, and it shows where Joss' thinking is on the subject. FYI, you were talking about Kendra in another comment elsewhere, and I feel the same impatience when it's implied that falling under Dru's thrall is proof that Kendra is an inferior Slayer. WTF? Buffy was under the Master's thrall when he killed her in PG. Was that also her fault?
Whatever the problems with Buffy&Spike S6 in terms of in-story, one thing they mostly got right was that both of them had to take responsibility for their OWN actions. No thrall, no "the devil made me do it", no excuses.
Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
Part of the problem is that despite the songs and poems throughout time, most people across the centuries haven't married for love first and foremost. There was a reason for arranged marriages: the parents and the entire clan/tribe vetted the union. It was for financial/political gain, it was a business deal much of the time. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of real love, or people marrying for love, but that wasn't first and foremost. This is possible when women are mostly seen as property to be "bartered away" of course; but I don't think we have centuries of experience in "love" behind us, not the modern-day kind we're "supposed" to feel. And it's supposed to be automatic, easy, like a bag of potato chips, like we're supposed to have perfect Christmas dinners, etc; it's a great big lie guaranteed to keep us anxious and feeling like failures, expecting too much of ourselves and others: Be my spouse, my lover, my best friend, the housekeeper, the breadwinner, the babysitter; read my mind; love me as much as my parents did or you'll disappoint me; give me the love my parents never did or you'll disappoint me. I love you exactly the way your are, now let me fix you.
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I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
fray_adjacent12 just rec'd this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point: http://archiveofourown.org/works/88341/chapters/119654?page=1&show_comments=true#comment_3538737
Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
That's me all the time. I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
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Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
Sure, go ahead!
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That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F
Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
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