:) The Summers sisters FTW - it just makes me sad and stabby that people hate both characters; and/or that people focus on Dawn's relationship to Spike to the absolute exclusion of her relationship with Buffy. I mean, Buffy gave up her LIFE to save her sister (and the world). It's like you said, sisterly love trumps everything.
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.) Also, the Tara meta? On hold but not forgotten. the post I did the other day about "Riley" has my mind going in another direction (but I think I figured out how to link Riley and Dawn's arcs in S5 mwhahahaha....Wait til I compare Blood Ties with ITW.)
Also, remember when you challenged me to "write my own fic"? I've got a very VERY rough draft for a B/T & B/S S6 fic. *gulp* When I've got it in better shape (if ever) would you be interested in looking at it?
it just makes me sad and stabby that people hate both characters; and/or that people focus on Dawn's relationship to Spike to the absolute exclusion of her relationship with Buffy.
Yes, this. :( Not so much stabby because I guess because live and let live, but incredibly sad. Because babies.
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
Wow. Bad LJ, bad!
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.)
I've been okay! Mostly flopping around with very little drive to do anything, but luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester. Still, very floppy. Sorry to hear about your cave o' depression, happy to hear it's going upward! <3
And ahah, no worries about linking to my story. I forgot you were even going to do that.
Also, the Tara meta? On hold but not forgotten.
Excellent. :)
the post I did the other day about "Riley" has my mind going in another direction
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
(but I think I figured out how to link Riley and Dawn's arcs in S5 mwhahahaha....Wait til I compare Blood Ties with ITW.)
Okay, now I really wanna see that. ... how much of a joke was that? ;)
Also, remember when you challenged me to "write my own fic"? I've got a very VERY rough draft for a B/T & B/S S6 fic. *gulp* When I've got it in better shape (if ever) would you be interested in looking at it?
omg
SCREECH?
I completely utterly endorse this and would be happy to look it over for you!
luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
how much of a joke was that? ;)
None whatsoever:
I completely utterly endorse this and would be happy to look it over for you!
Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
Asian Studies, with a focus on Japanese language. Just your regular manga geek. ;) Though I've been exceedingly into US TV shows recently. ... are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
Oh, I can definitely attest to that study. Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
Ah, yeah. We all do. I guess I'll go back and read the discussion in the comments! That's also always fun.
None whatsoever:
Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.
Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.
are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.
I'm not much of a tv watcher; my sweetie likes to watch things before bed so we'll watch together on Netflix. I did watch Ringer on my own also, for SMG as you did; I wouldn't have otherwise. (I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.) I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it) and now we're on S2 of Crossing Jordan on a friend's rec. (Also, I had a crush on Jill Hennessy back when she was on Law & Order in the '90's.) I've seen the first two seasons of Nurse Jackie and liked it but the third season isn't available on Netflix.
The other series I really like is Parks and Rec, probably my favorite comedy; my sweetie says she doesn't find it funny.
Other than that, not much. I haven't seen Mad Men, TVD, Breaking Bad, Friday Night Lights, all the series that people rave about. Then again I haven't seen Glee either. So, it balances out I guess.
Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.
Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.
I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think. As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.
(I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.)
Oh, yes. Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.
I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it)
Baw, that's sad. :( I vaguely, very vaguely thought maybe I'd give it a try someday. Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Also you have actually watched more TV than I have, I think. But then I don't even own a TV so I just stealth-stream stuff on the internet. I watched a few eps of Glee and was thoroughly unimpressed. The main brand of humor in that series seems to be "nasty".
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.
Yes. :( *hugs tight*
I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think.
Haha, feel free!
As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.
Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.
Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.
Meh. "Glorious trainwreck" is too dignified a phrase for it. I liked the "moral ambiguity" - and from what I saw in interviews with Sarah, that was exactly her intention: the series was actually getting more interesting when it concentrated on the sisters and their relationship, as well as their reversals of fortune rather than plot mechanics - if it had started out closer to that level, we might have had something. It needed to be more intelligent from the get-go, not "clever". There's a difference.
But Bridget did punch Mr Cooper. Never mind that she doesn't look tall enough to reach his jaw even with her 4" (?) heels. (I think it was actually her yelling at him rather than the physical action that I loved. There is SOMETHING about Sarah's voice, and it's not the sort of voice I usually am attracted to in women; I tend to prefer huskier, deeper voices, and her's is anything but. Or maybe it reminded me of a scene in "postmodern western" The Quick and the Dead where Sharon Stone goes after an asshole who just had sex with a 12 year old girl. Or Joyce with the fire axe in School Hard. Fierce, protective warrior mamas FTW.)
Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Word of (internet) mouth got me watching it, esp Nathaniel Rogers praise on "the film experience blog" which I used to visit every day. I haven't watched S1 but apparently it got a lot better (or so I've heard said) in S2. I might go back and watch S1 at some point. The humor is so dry and deadpan, and it's a tight ensemble - it's played as a "reality show" or "documentary" in some ways in that the characters do stop at times to talk to the camera. Amy Poehler is marvelous so yes, do give it a try. And one of my other favorite shows was Dead Like Me, have you seen that? That's the great thing about Netflix, discovering older shows that didn't get much of a chance and I missed the first time around. I love Georgia so much - and I found a nifty little fic that's a DLM / btvs crossover, I'm surprised there's not tons of those. We also loved Better off Ted, an office comedy that only lasted two seasons, and we LOVED No Reservations but Netflix took that off streaming *pout*
We don't own a tv either, or rather, cable hookup; haven't since I got together with my sweetie in 1996 or '97, because she didn't own one. And after having had it with a housemate I knew that there was almost nothing on for the money. Which is why I never saw Buffy when it originally aired.
*hugs tight*
*HUGS BACK* Aw thanks, hon I do love hugs. Sometimes I think I'm going to rename this LJ "Hugs Central". :-) Whatever went on in my house when I was a little girl, showing affection was something I did learn from my mom; there was that baseline of love and support, so I guess that's part of the reason I appreciate Joyce and wish she'd been on the show more.
Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.
Have you SEEN the length of my comments/replies? Hon, no worries, that's what LJ is all about, to me. You can't proclude my thoughts and more likely you'll just enrich them or get me going. I LOVE conversation, (as long as a certain modicum of civility and consideration is in place, y'know?) that's what brought me to this fandom.
Basically, I have in mind a Riley meta because I'm trying to have at least a little more compassion for him - I can see how we got from the nice but sometimes patronizing guy in S4 (esp Doomed) who doesn't ask questions and follows the rules, to the guy who falls apart because he can't handle chaos, and who then turns on Buffy. His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it, I think it's a bigger wound on her psyche than fandom, or even the show itself, gives credit for. but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body". they both have a false sense of self (in Riley's case, it's Maggie's fault, the monks fault in Dawn's) and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth, Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.
Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love". I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.
His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it
I think I've seen several Riley smackdowns around? elisi in particular (hi, I'm a professional lurker :'D) has written Riley-related meta.
but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
Because she didn't love him enough, duh! ... is probably the rationale they came up with, which is gross. Or rather, the question often seems to be whether she loved him at all. Or whether she "let him in" etc. And the fact that he felt like she didn't somehow makes him right and his behavior negligible. :| IT'S GROSS.
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body".
Haha, that's what I got, too!
and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth,
Oh, also a good point. I'll post my interpretation at the end. :)
Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.
W O R D.
Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love".
That is also true. And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.
Yes. There is indeed no way to make these things right. They're part and parcel of the series now and it would be hard to go back on them on the writers' part, however much we may hate it. :(
NOW. Here's what I originally wrote in reply to your comment where you compared Blood Ties and Into the Woods:
"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
ANYWAY, so. Riley's self-harm is also a betrayal and interpreted as such by Buffy; thus her reaction is anger and jealousy. Meanwhile, Dawn can't betray her because in this situation, Buffy is the traitor by neglecting to be open with Dawn about her origin. And even if the betrayal had somehow been on Dawn's side, a reconciliation would have come fast because the strong familial bonds dictate it. Again, sisterly love trumps all. Though I actually wonder: at the and of Into the Woods, Buffy runs to the platform as Riley flies away -- also a first step towards reconciliation. Had Riley stayed, things might have been tense for a while, but Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers. It seems Buffy doesn't even make such a great distinction between family and lovers, or, for that matter, friends. Which is, of course, in part because she's so terribly, terribly afraid of rocking the boat. So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
-- and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast. My bias shows, sob.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self (a thought also explored in sci fi/cyberpunk works). So here's the obvious conflict of, if Dawn has only existed as a physical presence in the world for six months, is what her mind, her memories tell her void? Is her very self a void? Because if she was created by someone else, and such a short time ago, there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn. Please, let me not be something that is shaped by what is done to it (and I use "thing" and "it" purposefully here -- is Buffy's overprotectiveness of Dawn in a way its own objectification? Certainly, it's keeping Dawn childlike). And because the Key was an object without consciousness (presumably - and isn't there an interesting thought?), Dawn also does not have access to her past as the Key at all, thus rendering both of her existences „unreal“."
... and that's how far I got. Seems to me like this train of thought is not yet concluded. :|a I was basically thinking while I was writing. Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what? Maggie Walsh is the one who betrayed Riley, who manipulated his blindly trusting "respect authority and don't ask questions" nature and put that chip in his heart. (Imagine if btvs had been set during the 1970's Nixon era, with Buffy & Willow as campus activists.) And he in turns betrays Buffy by attacking her most vunerable spot - her heart - as he did in Doomed.
Again, this COULD have been interesting, but the writers decided to make it ALL ABOUT BUFFY and ALL HER FAULT and just NO. As you say IT'S GROSS, and there is just no other word for it.
And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Thanks for the links! I enjoyed reading those metas. Because unjustified Buffy-blaming will never not be a sore spot. And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown. Which I think is what's uncomfortable about Buffy vs. Dracula -- because I feel it kind of WAS portrayed that way? Hell, that stereotype is associated with Buffy in ways where it is sometimes hard to see that nope, it isn't so simple. And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Oh, that is excellent. And I completely agree! Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
And I definitely agree Riley had massive internalized misogyny issues. Like, I think he honestly meant well, but he had all that military/wholesome family/chivalry crap internalized and never really analyzed it. Add to that a good dose of "all girls want bad boys" stereotypes and you've got yourself one ugly breakdown.
YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs a lantern on that before she wipes the floor with his undead ass. I can understand that Riley doesn't "get it" - in a sense, he's got this entitlement thing going on. He's a guy and was an exceptional one at that; now he's ordinary and all his shiny toys have been taken away (the patriarchs love their toys) except for Buffy. Hence the jealousy, which is an emotion that I've never been able to access. Envy? Yes. Jealousy? I've been on the receiving end a lot and it's very ugly and based entirely on that other person's insecurities.
ME implying that Buffy was being unfaithful to Riley while under thrall is pretty much the same thing as Dark Horse's claim that Buffy was responsible for her behavior during the spacefrak in S8, even while they showed her under the influence of a metaphorical "rape drug". So she was but she wasn't? That's utterly gross, and it shows where Joss' thinking is on the subject. FYI, you were talking about Kendra in another comment elsewhere, and I feel the same impatience when it's implied that falling under Dru's thrall is proof that Kendra is an inferior Slayer. WTF? Buffy was under the Master's thrall when he killed her in PG. Was that also her fault?
Whatever the problems with Buffy&Spike S6 in terms of in-story, one thing they mostly got right was that both of them had to take responsibility for their OWN actions. No thrall, no "the devil made me do it", no excuses.
Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
Part of the problem is that despite the songs and poems throughout time, most people across the centuries haven't married for love first and foremost. There was a reason for arranged marriages: the parents and the entire clan/tribe vetted the union. It was for financial/political gain, it was a business deal much of the time. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of real love, or people marrying for love, but that wasn't first and foremost. This is possible when women are mostly seen as property to be "bartered away" of course; but I don't think we have centuries of experience in "love" behind us, not the modern-day kind we're "supposed" to feel. And it's supposed to be automatic, easy, like a bag of potato chips, like we're supposed to have perfect Christmas dinners, etc; it's a great big lie guaranteed to keep us anxious and feeling like failures, expecting too much of ourselves and others: Be my spouse, my lover, my best friend, the housekeeper, the breadwinner, the babysitter; read my mind; love me as much as my parents did or you'll disappoint me; give me the love my parents never did or you'll disappoint me. I love you exactly the way your are, now let me fix you.
And just so much YES to your Riley & Dawn thoughts. I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do. I was kept my comments rather brief here (for me anyway) in case I did post a longer meta but we're pretty much thinking along the same lines here.
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
I don't have the background knowledge in sci fi/cyberpunk that you do.
Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.) Also, the Tara meta? On hold but not forgotten. the post I did the other day about "Riley" has my mind going in another direction (but I think I figured out how to link Riley and Dawn's arcs in S5 mwhahahaha....Wait til I compare Blood Ties with ITW.)
Also, remember when you challenged me to "write my own fic"? I've got a very VERY rough draft for a B/T & B/S S6 fic. *gulp* When I've got it in better shape (if ever) would you be interested in looking at it?
Reply
Yes, this. :( Not so much stabby because I guess because live and let live, but incredibly sad. Because babies.
I was writing a response to you before btw and LJ gobbled it up - stupid, stupid LJ.
Wow. Bad LJ, bad!
You've been on my mind lately! How have you been? I'm way behind in posting the link to your story - will do that TOMORROW, no fail. (I'm finally pulling myself out of the cave of depression, little by little.)
I've been okay! Mostly flopping around with very little drive to do anything, but luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester. Still, very floppy. Sorry to hear about your cave o' depression, happy to hear it's going upward! <3
And ahah, no worries about linking to my story. I forgot you were even going to do that.
Also, the Tara meta? On hold but not forgotten.
Excellent. :)
the post I did the other day about "Riley" has my mind going in another direction
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
(but I think I figured out how to link Riley and Dawn's arcs in S5 mwhahahaha....Wait til I compare Blood Ties with ITW.)
Okay, now I really wanna see that. ... how much of a joke was that? ;)
Also, remember when you challenged me to "write my own fic"? I've got a very VERY rough draft for a B/T & B/S S6 fic. *gulp* When I've got it in better shape (if ever) would you be interested in looking at it?
omg
SCREECH?
I completely utterly endorse this and would be happy to look it over for you!
Reply
YES.
luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester
What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
how much of a joke was that? ;)
None whatsoever:
I completely utterly endorse this and would be happy to look it over for you!
Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.
Reply
Asian Studies, with a focus on Japanese language. Just your regular manga geek. ;) Though I've been exceedingly into US TV shows recently. ... are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.
And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.
Oh, I can definitely attest to that study. Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".
Ah, yeah. We all do. I guess I'll go back and read the discussion in the comments! That's also always fun.
None whatsoever:
Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.
Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.
/just waving the pompoms here
Reply
I'm not much of a tv watcher; my sweetie likes to watch things before bed so we'll watch together on Netflix. I did watch Ringer on my own also, for SMG as you did; I wouldn't have otherwise. (I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.) I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it) and now we're on S2 of Crossing Jordan on a friend's rec. (Also, I had a crush on Jill Hennessy back when she was on Law & Order in the '90's.) I've seen the first two seasons of Nurse Jackie and liked it but the third season isn't available on Netflix.
The other series I really like is Parks and Rec, probably my favorite comedy; my sweetie says she doesn't find it funny.
Other than that, not much. I haven't seen Mad Men, TVD, Breaking Bad, Friday Night Lights, all the series that people rave about. Then again I haven't seen Glee either. So, it balances out I guess.
Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.
Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.
I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think. As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.
Reply
Oh, yes. Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.
I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it)
Baw, that's sad. :( I vaguely, very vaguely thought maybe I'd give it a try someday. Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Also you have actually watched more TV than I have, I think. But then I don't even own a TV so I just stealth-stream stuff on the internet. I watched a few eps of Glee and was thoroughly unimpressed. The main brand of humor in that series seems to be "nasty".
*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.
Yes. :( *hugs tight*
I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think.
Haha, feel free!
As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.
Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.
♥
Reply
Meh. "Glorious trainwreck" is too dignified a phrase for it. I liked the "moral ambiguity" - and from what I saw in interviews with Sarah, that was exactly her intention: the series was actually getting more interesting when it concentrated on the sisters and their relationship, as well as their reversals of fortune rather than plot mechanics - if it had started out closer to that level, we might have had something. It needed to be more intelligent from the get-go, not "clever". There's a difference.
But Bridget did punch Mr Cooper. Never mind that she doesn't look tall enough to reach his jaw even with her 4" (?) heels. (I think it was actually her yelling at him rather than the physical action that I loved. There is SOMETHING about Sarah's voice, and it's not the sort of voice I usually am attracted to in women; I tend to prefer huskier, deeper voices, and her's is anything but. Or maybe it reminded me of a scene in "postmodern western" The Quick and the Dead where Sharon Stone goes after an asshole who just had sex with a 12 year old girl. Or Joyce with the fire axe in School Hard. Fierce, protective warrior mamas FTW.)
Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.
Word of (internet) mouth got me watching it, esp Nathaniel Rogers praise on "the film experience blog" which I used to visit every day. I haven't watched S1 but apparently it got a lot better (or so I've heard said) in S2. I might go back and watch S1 at some point. The humor is so dry and deadpan, and it's a tight ensemble - it's played as a "reality show" or "documentary" in some ways in that the characters do stop at times to talk to the camera. Amy Poehler is marvelous so yes, do give it a try. And one of my other favorite shows was Dead Like Me, have you seen that? That's the great thing about Netflix, discovering older shows that didn't get much of a chance and I missed the first time around. I love Georgia so much - and I found a nifty little fic that's a DLM / btvs crossover, I'm surprised there's not tons of those. We also loved Better off Ted, an office comedy that only lasted two seasons, and we LOVED No Reservations but Netflix took that off streaming *pout*
We don't own a tv either, or rather, cable hookup; haven't since I got together with my sweetie in 1996 or '97, because she didn't own one. And after having had it with a housemate I knew that there was almost nothing on for the money. Which is why I never saw Buffy when it originally aired.
*hugs tight*
*HUGS BACK* Aw thanks, hon I do love hugs. Sometimes I think I'm going to rename this LJ "Hugs Central". :-) Whatever went on in my house when I was a little girl, showing affection was something I did learn from my mom; there was that baseline of love and support, so I guess that's part of the reason I appreciate Joyce and wish she'd been on the show more.
Reply
Have you SEEN the length of my comments/replies? Hon, no worries, that's what LJ is all about, to me. You can't proclude my thoughts and more likely you'll just enrich them or get me going. I LOVE conversation, (as long as a certain modicum of civility and consideration is in place, y'know?) that's what brought me to this fandom.
Basically, I have in mind a Riley meta because I'm trying to have at least a little more compassion for him - I can see how we got from the nice but sometimes patronizing guy in S4 (esp Doomed) who doesn't ask questions and follows the rules, to the guy who falls apart because he can't handle chaos, and who then turns on Buffy. His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it, I think it's a bigger wound on her psyche than fandom, or even the show itself, gives credit for. but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body". they both have a false sense of self (in Riley's case, it's Maggie's fault, the monks fault in Dawn's) and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth, Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.
Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love". I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.
Reply
I think I've seen several Riley smackdowns around? elisi in particular (hi, I'm a professional lurker :'D) has written Riley-related meta.
but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????
Because she didn't love him enough, duh! ... is probably the rationale they came up with, which is gross. Or rather, the question often seems to be whether she loved him at all. Or whether she "let him in" etc. And the fact that he felt like she didn't somehow makes him right and his behavior negligible. :| IT'S GROSS.
The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body".
Haha, that's what I got, too!
and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth,
Oh, also a good point. I'll post my interpretation at the end. :)
Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.
W O R D.
Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love".
That is also true. And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.
Yes. There is indeed no way to make these things right. They're part and parcel of the series now and it would be hard to go back on them on the writers' part, however much we may hate it. :(
Reply
"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
ANYWAY, so. Riley's self-harm is also a betrayal and interpreted as such by Buffy; thus her reaction is anger and jealousy. Meanwhile, Dawn can't betray her because in this situation, Buffy is the traitor by neglecting to be open with Dawn about her origin. And even if the betrayal had somehow been on Dawn's side, a reconciliation would have come fast because the strong familial bonds dictate it. Again, sisterly love trumps all. Though I actually wonder: at the and of Into the Woods, Buffy runs to the platform as Riley flies away -- also a first step towards reconciliation. Had Riley stayed, things might have been tense for a while, but Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers. It seems Buffy doesn't even make such a great distinction between family and lovers, or, for that matter, friends. Which is, of course, in part because she's so terribly, terribly afraid of rocking the boat. So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
-- and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast. My bias shows, sob.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self (a thought also explored in sci fi/cyberpunk works). So here's the obvious conflict of, if Dawn has only existed as a physical presence in the world for six months, is what her mind, her memories tell her void? Is her very self a void? Because if she was created by someone else, and such a short time ago, there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn. Please, let me not be something that is shaped by what is done to it (and I use "thing" and "it" purposefully here -- is Buffy's overprotectiveness of Dawn in a way its own objectification? Certainly, it's keeping Dawn childlike). And because the Key was an object without consciousness (presumably - and isn't there an interesting thought?), Dawn also does not have access to her past as the Key at all, thus rendering both of her existences „unreal“."
... and that's how far I got. Seems to me like this train of thought is not yet concluded. :|a I was basically thinking while I was writing. Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
Reply
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2003/03/13/buffy-why-riley-is-not-a-nice-jock/
"In a way, season-five Riley was where Buffy writers began seriously examining misogyny among ordinary men..."
Also gabrielleabelle's breakdown of B/R S5: http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/354693.html
mcjulie's no-nonsense meta on ITW & I will forever love her bottom-line: "He cheated on her. Repeatedly. With professionals." http://mcjulie.livejournal.com/42869.html
I did read elisi's blog and commented on it last Sept, and still agree with all of my comments then.- I think except for molly_may most commenters and elisi were more - sympathetic for Riley. Elisi made some terrific points in her meta but the repetition of "Buffy was bad for Riley" - whoa, wait, what? Maggie Walsh is the one who betrayed Riley, who manipulated his blindly trusting "respect authority and don't ask questions" nature and put that chip in his heart. (Imagine if btvs had been set during the 1970's Nixon era, with Buffy & Willow as campus activists.) And he in turns betrays Buffy by attacking her most vunerable spot - her heart - as he did in Doomed.
Again, this COULD have been interesting, but the writers decided to make it ALL ABOUT BUFFY and ALL HER FAULT and just NO. As you say IT'S GROSS, and there is just no other word for it.
And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Grow up, get real or go home IOW.
Reply
WORD. In my experience the "genuine article" very rarely is "romantic". Romance is generally sold to us as a feeling that just happens - and if its not there it's not really love - and in our culture you're supposed to just move on. Or fix it. Or stay but wonder why the hell your relationship isn't perfect, and mold yourselves to that. But that "feeling that just happens", effortlessly, in the beginning? That's need and loneliness and lust and just plain old hormonal chemistry. That ain't love, hon. When we put "love" in a box and label it, and demand that it look a certain way, as Riley does to Buffy (and Buffy does with Spike later, because she's also doing it to herself as well) then we miss the love that comes our way, we can't see it when it crosses our paths. But we also forget or don't realize that honest, real love includes some hard damn work and effort. "Committment" doesn't stop at reciting vows. (Ask one of my best friends, two lesbians, whose partner cheated on her after they had a "committment ceremony". I stopped hinting to my partner that I wanted such a ceremony because it reminded me how the ritual itself is an empty one without genuine committment behind it.)
Oh, that is excellent. And I completely agree! Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
Reply
YES. it was handled well in a lot of ways, whatever my impatience with the "poor Riley" implications pretty early on. But his behavior is IC, and the issue is one that affects women especially: being the "mindreaders" and knowing what everyone else needs, putting aside their own needs for everyone else. then the show just bolloxed it up by indicating that's exactly what Buffy should have done. Hence my issue with the whole thing.
And I rewatched the episode a while ago and noticed just how uncomfortable Buffy was with basically all of Dracula's advances. Just. Ugh.
Right? Again, vampirism has been associated with sexuality and rape since the beginning of the series, and Buffy is clearly under his thrall; she even hangs a lantern on that before she wipes the floor with his undead ass. I can understand that Riley doesn't "get it" - in a sense, he's got this entitlement thing going on. He's a guy and was an exceptional one at that; now he's ordinary and all his shiny toys have been taken away (the patriarchs love their toys) except for Buffy. Hence the jealousy, which is an emotion that I've never been able to access. Envy? Yes. Jealousy? I've been on the receiving end a lot and it's very ugly and based entirely on that other person's insecurities.
ME implying that Buffy was being unfaithful to Riley while under thrall is pretty much the same thing as Dark Horse's claim that Buffy was responsible for her behavior during the spacefrak in S8, even while they showed her under the influence of a metaphorical "rape drug". So she was but she wasn't? That's utterly gross, and it shows where Joss' thinking is on the subject. FYI, you were talking about Kendra in another comment elsewhere, and I feel the same impatience when it's implied that falling under Dru's thrall is proof that Kendra is an inferior Slayer. WTF? Buffy was under the Master's thrall when he killed her in PG. Was that also her fault?
Whatever the problems with Buffy&Spike S6 in terms of in-story, one thing they mostly got right was that both of them had to take responsibility for their OWN actions. No thrall, no "the devil made me do it", no excuses.
Humans are way too contrary and complicated for even love to work without, well, working for it.
Part of the problem is that despite the songs and poems throughout time, most people across the centuries haven't married for love first and foremost. There was a reason for arranged marriages: the parents and the entire clan/tribe vetted the union. It was for financial/political gain, it was a business deal much of the time. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of real love, or people marrying for love, but that wasn't first and foremost. This is possible when women are mostly seen as property to be "bartered away" of course; but I don't think we have centuries of experience in "love" behind us, not the modern-day kind we're "supposed" to feel. And it's supposed to be automatic, easy, like a bag of potato chips, like we're supposed to have perfect Christmas dinners, etc; it's a great big lie guaranteed to keep us anxious and feeling like failures, expecting too much of ourselves and others: Be my spouse, my lover, my best friend, the housekeeper, the breadwinner, the babysitter; read my mind; love me as much as my parents did or you'll disappoint me; give me the love my parents never did or you'll disappoint me. I love you exactly the way your are, now let me fix you.
Reply
I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else.
YES. THIS. I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September, Pt#3 of the meta: http://red-satin-doll.livejournal.com/1857.html A lot of that meta was me figuring stuff out and I probably would alter now, but that item hasn't changed at all.
Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position...Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.
infinitewhale said to me that S5 was "all about" Buffy, Joyce and Dawn anyway. I agree - AFTER Riley left. Up to that point, his manpain took up a lot of space, but so did Spike's, Xander's, & Giles'. It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast.
MORE, PLEASE.
Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers
oftentimes TOO forgiving IMO. "Selfless" at least acknowledges that just because she forgives doesn't mean she forgets or doesn't feel the hurt; but this is another example where I'm not sure how much of this is the show telling us that she's too forgiving sometimes, or that's another blind spot on the writers' part: that women are SUPPOSED to forgive any slight. I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important. Spike earns her forgiveness in S7 (and she his); Riley expects an apology as his due in AYW. Huge difference.
So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).
YES. And she's already lost so much by that point; and when she does express the need for support or help, she often doesn't get it. She's learned since her father left the family, to want that but not to trust or rely on it. And she's learned from Xander, from Ted in S2, DMP in S3, etc that expressing anger is unacceptable on some level. We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think esp re the objectification of Dawn and keeping her childlike, not just by Buffy but Joyce and the SG even after The Gift: http://upupa-epops.livejournal.com/247203.html?thread=5334691#t5334691
there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn
fray_adjacent12 just rec'd this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point: http://archiveofourown.org/works/88341/chapters/119654?page=1&show_comments=true#comment_3538737
Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
That's me all the time. I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
Reply
Naaah I don't really have that knowledge; I was mostly referring to one manga series that I love deeply. :P It thematizes that same conflict a lot.
I said the same thing on one of my first posts here, also last September
Maybe it was you I got it from. I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
It felt like a more feminine season at the time because of Dawn and Joyce, but now I'm not so sure I'd feel the same on rewatch.
It does feel more feminine! But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
And, I hadn't gotten anywhere near the point you had in terms of Buffy's role vis a vis Dawn & Riley.
I think we just went at it from different angles? I've roleplayed Dawn for a while, I guess it rubbed off on me.
I think Giles' comments in IOHIFY (kind of a creepy episode anyway) are meant to be taken as wisdom: forgiveness isn't given because it's deserved but because it's needed, but I think S7 demonstrates that's leaves out something important: earning forgiveness is also important.
Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that. Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
We see that quality in Joyce as well: her rage in Ted, Becoming, Anne, DMP, Gingerbread; held inside until it bursts out thanks to a spell or alcohol; and then misdirected and impotent when it does come out.
Oh, interesting catch! There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women. Dawn does the same, in her own way -- expressing her anger through stealing in S6 etc. I feel kind of bad for her in Potential when she's sitting on the basement stairs and Buffy's talking to the Potentials and completely ignoring what Dawn says. You can just see Dawn sitting there stewing in frustration and trying out, feebly, to change something about it but not succeeding. I guess children with conflict-avoidant authority figures can't help but become conflict-avoidant themselves. I may or may not be speaking from experience.
Some of the things I said about Dawn and why she seems younger on the show on the metacommentficathon apply here I think
Ahh, yes. Dawn kind of has to un-objectify herself, doesn't she? And it's Buffy who has trouble letting go of coddling mode. Certainly, Joyce's death contributed to that. Buffy clearly acts out of fear of inadequacy -- she fears she won't be able to protect Dawn properly, thus she protects extra hard. And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite... IDK fanwank here.
this terrific Dawn fic "Umad Learns Sumerian" that addresses that exact point
YES, I just finished reading it and it is so, so good. I'm still gonna have to review, because, so good.
I don't have much to add to your Dawn thoughts but if I do a metapost on this, may I quote your ideas here?
Sure, go ahead!
Reply
That theme has been central to horror & sci-fi genres though, hasn't it? Which has it's origins all the way back to creation myths, then fairy tales and such. From Pinocchio to the Golem, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to Philip K Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
I've read a good deal of meta and tend to forget where my information comes from.
Same here. It was easier back in the day before the internet. I had the library and real book/magazines/newpapers, only a limited number of sources in front of me. Now? Fucking endless. There is no way for the brain to keep track of where you get every little idea or piece of information, once it becomes encoded into your CPU so to speak.
But OTOH Spike's crush-antics take up quite a bit of space. I guess this is one of those things where a tally would help.
Like the ones did, "Whose Show is it Anyway?" http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/tag/whose%20show%20is%20it%20anyway%3F
Numbers and stats are so not my thing. But you can't quantify other things - how a scene is staged/shot, the context, the expressions on an actor's face in such a way to create more or greater meaning than just "minutes of screen time" would imply.
Does that mean we're obligated to forgive those who gravely harm us? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Which works in terms of Buffy/Angel because the soulbomb wasn't Buffy's fault; the underlying issue is that she needs to forgive herself; receiving forgiveness from someone else is not the same thing. But it doesn't work with James and Grace. Buffy's vulva is NOT a deadly weapon, she didn't go in with "deadly intent". James did; he may not have "meant" to kill Grace, but he knew what you can do with a gun, that's why he had it in his hand. No excuses.
that the episode put the emphasis on Grace forgiving him for killing her and asking his forgiveness because she should never have "let him believe she stopped loving him?" NO. The problem was that as an adult and a teacher there was a power imbalance and she shouldn't have allowed any romantic relationship with a minor and a student to continue in the first place. Which then makes it sound like I'm blaming the victim and I don't mean to do that; she's not responsible for him killing her, he is. But - it's a problematic situation and message all around.
There's definitely a parallel there. NGL I love the parallels between the three Summers women.
Yes. that scene in Ted where Buffy tries to talk to Joyce afterward Ted has "died" and Joyce shuts her off is almost their entire relationship S1-3 in a nutshell; when I see people call buffy "closed off" I want to point out that it didn't come out of nowhere. None of these characters' issues came out of nowhere.
I tend to focus on Buffy so l appreciate that you bring Dawn's perspective into it. "conflict-avoidant figures" indeed. Willow is VERY much the same way; her mother seems even tighter than Joyce emotionally, all logic and reason. I can imagine Willow being uncomfortable, even frightened as a child hearing the Harris' argue, or later on listening to Buffy and Dawn argue, (there's an irony: Hank yells, Joyce deflects or avoids, so Buffy and Dawn have both of those qualities.) I'd love to write fic about that from Willow's POV someday.
I may or may not be speaking from experience.
*hugs*
And maybe she also feels that, once she's decided to accept the reality the monks have forced on her, it would be a betrayal if she went back on that by stepping out of her role as Dawn's protector, and letting Dawn step out of her role of the protected? Like by not being extremely protective of Dawn, she'd deny Dawn's personhood. When really, it's actually kind of the opposite.
WORD to this entire paragraph. Mind? Blown. I hadn't even framed it in those terms. This is my headcanon now; and when I write that meta I am SO going to quote this. (And thanks for your kind permission!)
Reply
Leave a comment