Philosophy vs. Frivolity

[rebcake]

This just came across my dash:

“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.”
--Lord Darlington from "Lady Windermere's Fan" by Oscar WildeSo I've been having thoughts, as one does, about the nature of good and evil as seen through the lens of BtVS. Especially, you know: Spike. There are always posts and

Comments

[shapinglight]

Very interesting post, and your answers are interesting too.

I'm not sure I have anything to add to the original post, since you've already presented the two facts that contradict the OP's thesis.

[rebcake]

Well, "selfish" is nearly as difficult to define as "evil" and "love". I think most people agree that motivations are rarely purely one thing or another, but rather a mix of things. I'm willing to be convinced that Spike underwent torture for selfish reasons, or took on bodyguardianship of Dawn for same, but it'll take some doing.

Would I bother to care if I wasn't charmed by the character, though? Doubtful.

[shapinglight]

Would I bother to care if I wasn't charmed by the character, though? Doubtful.

Same here, of course. I really should try to comment on the OP. A discussion like that not taking place semi-incomprehensibly on Tumblr is a rarity these days.

ETA: Ah. I see I was wrong. That was cross-posted from Tumblr. Which explains, I suppose, why the DW poster in question hasn't made a post in however many years. :(

ETA2: do you yourself have a Tumblr?

ETA3: I went back and re-read the OP and the comments and I still can't think of anything intelligent to say. I think I'd better just leave it.

[mercurychaos]

I really should try to comment on the OP.

OP here; please do! I love having discussions about this stuff but never meet anyone in real life who cares enough to have them. I do make posts at DW semi-regularly, but almost all of them are private; this is the only exception that I've made recently.

[kerry_220]

Certainly an interesting post. I don't feel entitled to say anything over there.

I'm always fascinated, though, by the underlying assumption that having a soul - which IMO reads for a conscience in BtVS - automatically engenders selfless devotion. It doesn't. People act selfishly and thoughtlessly every day. Within the context of BtVS itself, Angel floundered about for over a century before the sight of young Buffy motivated him to want something more.

I also think it is a pretty hardcore fan who thinks that Spike would have changed without the chip.... and Buffy. Still, surely the fact these changes happened at all should be evidence of how very different he was.

[rebcake]

You are absolutely entitled to say whatever you think! Sometimes it's hard to know what to say when everybody is making all these well-reasoned arguments, though!

The only thing I can tell about the soul in the Buffyverse - because how Angel and Spike are with and without - is that is confers shame. That...doesn't seem like the most useful thing in terms of achieving "goodness".

It's hard to imagine Spike changing to the extent that he did without the chip, definitely. I suppose it could have also happened if he'd had the soul imposed from without, as Angel did. But he seemed pretty happy with his life of mayhem, for the most part. It's telling that the last time we see Spike being truly terrifying - when he attacks Willow in her dorm room - is right before we and he discover the chip. The commercial break marks the fulcrum of Spike's character turn.

[mercurychaos]

I don't feel entitled to say anything over there.

OP here; you absolutely are. I didn't leave the post public and open to comments by accident. :)

[kerry_220]

Thanks! I just felt that as you didn't know me from Adam, it was a bit rude

[enigmaticblues]

I completely agree. The fact that Spike might be able to do good things without a soul makes him interesting, just as the fact that the good guys do bad things makes them more interesting. Reminds me of "Lie to Me," where one of Giles' lies was that the good guys always wear white hats and win the day.

It might be the reason that I liked Angel a heck of a lot more when he got his own show and was a little more layered.

[rebcake]

Totally true. I always get a little tired of the demon=evil/human=good argument when we have Clem and Lorne as Exhibit A against and Warren and the Mayor and Caleb as Exhibit B. Oz is one of the early examples of "it's complicated", too. I'm in the minority, but I also liked the AtS episode "She" because the supposed victims of the piece were actually dangerous, albeit not with evil intentions. Those kinds of things are what make the show(s) worth talking about all this time later.

[rahirah]

Heh. It may not be far off. :D

[rebcake]

He does keep us guessing, doesn't he?

[thisficklemob]

I believe it was you who said that all the "reasons" one likes a 'ship are secondary to the lizard-brain going, "THAT ONE," and we rationalize after the fact. (I find that true of my S/B shippiness.) It may be just as true of characters. I can read other people fangirl/fanboying someone (say, Cordelia on BtVS or Harmony) and see their point... and it may actually change my viewpoint... but my initial responses are just YEP or NOPE or HMM and I have to come up with likely reasons later.

[mercurychaos]

I'm flattered that you thought my post was worth commenting on. I'm planning to make some changes and clarifications later on, and I've added in some definitions of "good" and "evil" in the opening (which I should have done to begin with.)

That quote is a pretty good summary of how I choose my favorite characters - I don't care if they're good as long as they're interesting, and Spike is that.

[rebcake]

Thanks for making the post. Talking about this stuff is why we're all here, I think. I don't think there is an answer to a lot of the questions that the work raised, but the unexamined fandom isn't worth getting excited about, amirite?