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Jun 14, 2006 22:55

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lukifer June 15 2006, 07:51:04 UTC
My problem with this would be that you seem to presuppose that the normative value of knowing the truth or of believing justified beliefs can only subsist if it can be somehow 'grounded' in some other normative value. That is, you only have a 'motivation' (how ironic) to adopt an account of truth that 'grounds' the value of truth on the assumption that 1) if you do, that value will be solid and comfortable and have a nice home, and 2) if you don't, it will be kicked out onto the streets and die alone in the gutter: it makes a difference whether you ground it or not ( ... )

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4. paulhope June 15 2006, 18:20:27 UTC
I don't understand the first paragraph of this, although I don't think I'm presupposing what you're saying I'm presupposing. Could you rephrase, maybe?

Essentially, what I'm asking is 'given your implicit rejection of the idea of there just being values to things like truth, how can you support this 'foundationalist' system?'The short answer is that I don't support the foundationalist system. I think there have to be other ways to beat or accomodate the infinite regress. I'm not saying that such a thing is trivial, or not prone to all sorts of other problems, but I think we should be investigating in its direction ( ... )

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Re: 4. lukifer June 15 2006, 21:21:52 UTC
Could you rephrase, maybe?
I think it's basically the same as what you've understood, about the infinite regress and intrinsic values.

I think there have to be other ways to beat or accomodate the infinite regress. I'm not saying that such a thing is trivial, or not prone to all sorts of other problems, but I think we should be investigating in its direction.Which is all very good, but it seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse with this post. Here, you seem to be saying 'we ought to adopt an account of truth which grounds its value, and this is instrumentalism (or any other suggestion that does the same thing)'. Now it seems to me we only have a reason to adopt such an account if and when you can show us that it actually does grounds the value of truth. It's like I'm living in my correspondence-coherence-or-whatever-house on the seaside, and you come in and yell 'the tsunami of ungrounded values is coming! You must come with me to my house of instrumental truth where you will be safe.' Now, if your house looks ( ... )

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Re: 4. paulhope June 16 2006, 15:53:23 UTC
If you can show a coherent way to ground the practical values that are meant to ground truth, then the appeal to come over to the instrumentalism hut will be persuasive.

You are, of course, absolutely right. I wrote this post more to try and motivate the inquiry into instrumentalism (by showing that there was something unsatisfying about the hut you're in) than to actually convince anybody that it was a good idea. My intention is to write more posts in the future looking into some of the problems with instrumentalism, but now to have something to point back at to when people say "But why are you trying to save instrumentalism anyway? It's stupid!"

I can only value certain things I think this is a question that needs to be answered empirically. But my impression of people's capacity to value is that they often confuse what is instrumentally valuable with what is intrinsically valuable. Or, rather, whatever capacity we have to value doesn't always keep track of which things were valuable first. It turns into a big tangled mess ( ... )

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Re: 4. lukifer June 16 2006, 17:50:41 UTC
I wrote this post more to try and motivate the inquiry into instrumentalism
Oh right. Jolly good then. It makes sense when seen in that light.

I think this is a question that needs to be answered empirically.
I think it's a question that needs a combination of empirical and phenomenological investigation. But that's probably beside the point.

It turns into a big tangled mess of valuation
Certainly. So it is incumbent upon philosophers, presumably, to try to untangle it.

Rather than having a set of grounding, foundational values, a web of values might be able to ground each other in a coherent but radically revisable way.
I suppose so, although I'm sceptical about whether truth can be removed from that web. But that's more a question for your future posts.

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Re: 4. paulhope June 16 2006, 18:20:56 UTC
I suppose so, although I'm sceptical about whether truth can be removed from that web.

Do you think it needs to be for the project to work?

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Re: 4. lukifer June 16 2006, 20:54:48 UTC
Well, no, I'm just saying it's what this post itself seems to be about. Or something. With truth. Being valuable. Or somehow related to value of some sort.

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