Oh, damn! This is absolutely brilliant. This is just exactly how things would go down between them if they brought sex into their relationship. Including the dubcon, and how Walt is a closet dom and Jesse is a closet submissive and DUDES, PLZ ACQUAINT YOURSELVES WITH SAFEWORDS AND THE CONCEPT OF SAFE, SANE, AND CONSENSUAL. JFC. Because they want things like that, but they're not communicating and they're not putting it into an ethical framework, so it's abuse hotness rather than happyfunteims. Argh. Dear Jesse, it's totally possible to get off on belonging to and obeying somebody while maintaining boundaries. Dear Walt, It's totally possible to ravish and control somebody while allowing them the right to back out when consent isn't, like,you know, PRESENT. FFS. Bruises on your twink's hips can be just as pretty when they're the product of something pre-agreed rather than something you did that made him feel like your shameful mistress/whore.
((sigh)) So, yeah, these two are just exactly perfect right here. Which is why the whole thing, like everythign with them, makes me so sad and conflicted.
One of the reasons I didn't explicitly mention the slash over on TWOP was because I kind of don't like seeing it? Because Walt is such an abusive fuck and the last thing Jesse needs is some dubcon to add to his traumas.
And, also, damn it, Walt is a horrible person and somehow he gets to have had not one but *two* hot young blond(e)s in his life? Statuesque Skylar and pretty twink Jesse. My sense of injustice rises at that. And my jealousy, TBH. ;)
Er, and now I totally want to write Jane/Jesse pegging fic. Because she seemed to really, really enjoy his shudder-y, nervous, virginal yet adoring gazes and submission to her big ol' heroin needle. It's entirely possible I enjoyed watching that scene rather a lot, NEGL. And I could see Jesse being weirdly thrilled to have her being all kinky with a, dunno, sparkly purple dildo strapped on, harness digging into her slim hips. And, baw, she was all tender kisses and "this okay?" before she slid the needle in. So that would be some sweet shit, man.
Dude. Holy shit. Write it! I would read the shit out of something like that. I miss Jane, too, and I think that would work so perfectly for them. (In another unposted fic of mine, there is implied past Jane/Jesse pegging.) Although, really, I would kind of be excited to read Jesse bottoming for, like, anybody.
Although, really, I would kind of be excited to read Jesse bottoming for, like, anybody.
Yeah. I hear you on that. Though I really like the idea of him bottoming without the situation being such where he feels shamed about it. Or where it hurts in unfun ways. ((sigh)) Subby guys run into such a lot of shit from people with sexist ideas of masculinity and dominance. It's fucking ridiculous.
This is just exactly how things would go down between them if they brought sex into their relationship.
I think there are some other plausible iterations of a sexual relationship between them, but this was meant as the most plausible and complete version I could think of. I'm glad it feels accurate to you. It would be nice if I thought some consensual BDSM would work for them, but they can't communicate well enough. Doesn't work. (I may have written a happier and totally consensual version of this relationship involving Daddy!kink, though, which was just barely on the right side of plausible.)
One of the reasons I didn't explicitly mention the slash over on TWOP was because I kind of don't like seeing it? Because Walt is such an abusive fuck and the last thing Jesse needs is some dubcon to add to his traumas.
Oh, God, I know. That's why I'll honestly admit to writing it before I'll ever actually claim to ship it. The thought of shipping something this dark and fucked-up makes me unhappy.
And, also, damn it, Walt is a horrible person and somehow he gets to have had not one but *two* hot young blond(e)s in his life? Statuesque Skylar and pretty twink Jesse. My sense of injustice rises at that. And my jealousy, TBH. ;)
Thank you for writing! Whenever I'm fascinated by a pairing, I always crave lengthy, well written fic of it. And I thought I'd got all of that I was going to get with fakepoptart's multi-chapter story, because this is such a minor fandom and such a small pairing. But no, there was your gorgeous work awaiting me! And it was so very, very good. DAMN, GURL. ((cheers))
I think there are some other plausible iterations of a sexual relationship between them, but this was meant as the most plausible and complete version I could think of. I'm glad it feels accurate to you.
I knew it was accurate when Walt kept disappointing the hell out of me and making me wince in disgust. LOL. God, the scene where they have dinner and it's a callback to Walt offering Jesse the breakfast his real family isn't around to want... oh, god. That was horrible and exactly true. And then how the sex got better for Jesse after he prodded at Walt's pride over being good at things... UGH. JESUS. Those are just the moments that stood out, but they certainly weren't alone. Everything felt really true.
Even the part where Walt had more experience with same sex relations than Jesse -- I've been wondering whether Walt and Eliot got up to some stuff in a very Marine barracks straight dudes touching each other sort of way. After their cups of 10 for 1.99 Ramen or whatever that was. LOL.
It would be nice if I thought some consensual BDSM would work for them, but they can't communicate well enough. Doesn't work.
Yeah. :-/ They are a slow motion train wreck with or without the sex. It's a tribute to the writing and acting that I still desperately wish things would be better for them both. Well, mostly Jesse. Walt's speech about never making choices in Season 1 pre-faced the fact that, whether he admits it or not, ultimately he's chosen this hell he's made for himself. This is a Noir without a femme fatale luring him to his fate. It's all his own character flaws and dark desires.
But Jesse... hell, as far as the structure of the story is concerned, Walt is kind of Jesse's femme fatale. Person with a sob story and a strange allure tantalizing him and manipulating him into deeper and deeper shit, beckoning him further off the safe path. Though since Jesse was already involved in criminal activity, it doesn't *quite* map. But he was presented as rather an innocent despite that, so...
Of the two of them, my point is that Walt's fate is chosen and actively sought, whereas Jesse is more the feckless Noir schlub who got caught up in something nasty. Fred MacMurrey to Walt's Barbara Stanwyck.
(I may have written a happier and totally consensual version of this relationship involving Daddy!kink, though, which was just barely on the right side of plausible.)
...damn, you wrote that? You, like, have a word document somewhere with that inside? Would it be possible for a soul to read that somehow? Have you considered posting?
Oh, God, I know. That's why I'll honestly admit to writing it before I'll ever actually claim to ship it. The thought of shipping something this dark and fucked-up makes me unhappy.
Yeah. I keep wanting to not see it. It's strange to me, because I'm primarily into het and femslash (because if there isn't a woman involved, I'm pretty uninterested), but this is just... so very there.
Thank you for writing! Whenever I'm fascinated by a pairing, I always crave lengthy, well written fic of it. And I thought I'd got all of that I was going to get with fakepoptart's multi-chapter story, because this is such a minor fandom and such a small pairing. But no, there was your gorgeous work awaiting me! And it was so very, very good. DAMN, GURL. ((cheers))
Thanks. I'm usually more into oneshots, myself, but with this pairing I seem to have a craving for longer multi-chapter fic, too. I want to see the whole relationship. That's why I pestered fakepoptart to turn her fic into a series, and why I'm still trying to encourage her to continue it.
I knew it was accurate when Walt kept disappointing the hell out of me and making me wince in disgust. LOL.
Yeah. And I actually think I'm pretty nice to him here, considering how little I actually like him; I think he's sympathetic, still. It makes me sad to think that if there's a major issue with his characterization here versus season 4 so far, it's that I made him too attentive and kind to Jesse.
I've been wondering whether Walt and Eliot got up to
I've always maintained the possibility of some Walt/Elliot action in the past, but, for the record, I intended that moment in the fic to be ambiguous. I think it can also be read as Walt hiding the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing.
Walt is kind of Jesse's femme fatale.
Oh, that is awesome. Not least because I'm so very wary of the way that applying ideas about gender to Walt/Jesse tends to put Jesse unequivically in the feminine role, which means reinstating so much essentialist crap.
...damn, you wrote that? You, like, have a word document somewhere with that inside? Would it be possible for a soul to read that somehow? Have you considered posting?
The first part of the series is posted behind members-lock at bb_slash, along with another fic of mine. The rest of the series I wrote for a friend, and it's all posted at our private LJ clubhouse. If you like the first part, I can assemble the other parts and e-mail them to you, along with any of my other fics that I have posted there. As for posting them more widely: haven't decided yet. They require work that I won't have time to do for a while.
Yeah. And I actually think I'm pretty nice to him here, considering how little I actually like him; I think he's sympathetic, still. It makes me sad to think that if there's a major issue with his characterization here versus season 4 so far, it's that I made him too attentive and kind to Jesse.
Yeah. But I don't see that as a flaw because your fic is an AU -- it makes sense for different circumstances to lead to different behavior. Part of what makes it believable for me is that you're fic is set in a storyverse where Walt isn't allowed by Gus to "keep" Jesse as his lab assistant with the guaranteed regular contact that carries with it, which would naturally cause feelings of loss that could unsettle him enough to make him actually work more at their relationship, imo. It has in the past.
IDK, it worked for me.
Oh, that is awesome. Not least because I'm so very wary of the way that applying ideas about gender to Walt/Jesse tends to put Jesse unequivically in the feminine role, which means reinstating so much essentialist crap.
Oh GOD I hate that about slash/yaoi, how people do this fucking ugly shit where they're just buying right into gender essentialism and I'm, like, look, I could have a less sexist reading experience with some hetfic FFS. ((sigh)) I read stuff like that and I feel the noose tightening around my own neck, because of the author thinks so rigidly about gender that a man who's interpreted as feminine deserves to have no bodily autonomy, no respect, no alternation of nauseaus mandates for loss of self, obviously I as someone who's a woman am assumed by that standard to be even more trapped. It's just... ugh.
Fuck the patriarchy.
Returning to your fic for a sec, it made sense to me that Walt never agreed to be penetrated because of his issues and it was obvious that they were his issues as a dommy guy who identifies as straight fucking another man. Because he doesn't understand his domminess as a personality thing rather than a man thing, and he's working off cultural notions that got back to fucking Rome about how it's still manly to penetrate another man, but it's a loss of power to be penetrated.
The fact that Jesse would have been down with pitching, though, helped upset the idea that Walt was right in his assumptions. It didn't feel like the fic itself was saying penetration = submission entirely.
Walt is totally depriving himself because he doesn't get that one can top while being penetrated. So... his loss! lol
I've always maintained the possibility of some Walt/Elliot action in the past, but, for the record, I intended that moment in the fic to be ambiguous. I think it can also be read as Walt hiding the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing.
((nod)) Which he totally would. But I prefer the former reading because I've always liked the idea of queering his relationship to Eliot and Gretchen so that he's jealous of both of them for having the other. If he's just jealous of Eliot, then that makes Gretchen like a thing that goes with the money. A thing Walt doesn't have. I like it if Walt saw her kind of as competition as well as someone to be jealous over.
Part of what makes it believable for me is that you're fic is set in a storyverse where Walt isn't allowed by Gus to "keep" Jesse as his lab assistant with the guaranteed regular contact that carries with it, which would naturally cause feelings of loss that could unsettle him enough to make him actually work more at their relationship, imo.
Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, thanks for saying so, but I wasn't really making that comment to point out any kind of deficiency in the fic, but just to marvel for a second at how Walt can be as awful as he is here and it's still a positive alternative to the canon (so far, at least).
Returning to your fic for a sec, it made sense to me that Walt never agreed to be penetrated because of his issues and it was obvious that they were his issues as a dommy guy who identifies as straight fucking another man.
I'd be interested to hear how believable it felt to you that Walt would hold onto the inherited ideas about being penetrated as a sign of weakness/insuffcient masculinity, but was able to grasp the idea that giving a blow job is a more powerful/dominant position than receiving one and being totally cool with doing it. I mean, there's more to his reciprocation that just the power issues, stuff having to do with his justification of it all as something he's doing for Jesse's sake, but I intended that moment to play as surprising but still plausible.
But I prefer the former reading because I've always liked the idea of queering his relationship to Eliot and Gretchen so that he's jealous of both of them for having the other. If he's just jealous of Eliot, then that makes Gretchen like a thing that goes with the money. A thing Walt doesn't have. I like it if Walt saw her kind of as competition as well as someone to be jealous over.
I'd be interested to hear how believable it felt to you that Walt would hold onto the inherited ideas about being penetrated as a sign of weakness/insuffcient masculinity, but was able to grasp the idea that giving a blow job is a more powerful/dominant position than receiving one and being totally cool with doing it. I mean, there's more to his reciprocation that just the power issues, stuff having to do with his justification of it all as something he's doing for Jesse's sake, but I intended that moment to play as surprising but still plausible.
I thought the key there is that Walt distinguishes between different types of blowjobs. He wanted his blowjob from Jesse to be about Jesse's powerlessness -- he wanted to manipulate Jesse's body forcefully for himself, be in absolute control. That is, he wanted to be in control of his own level of sensation and when/how he came.
But when Walt was giving a blowjob, he did it in a way that was all about his control as well. Only giving as much sensation as he wanted the way he wanted, teasing Jesse and playing his body. He wanted to *make* Jesse lose control with his manipulations.
Now, being penetrated can have that complexity, too. But my own interpretation was that assfucking wasn't something Walt had really done that much before. Lots of straight guys who do stuff with other guys draw the line at that as being too gay. I could see Walt experimenting with handjobs and blowjobs and discovering the nuances but still holding a stereotypical idea of anal.
Now, being penetrated can have that complexity, too. But my own interpretation was that assfucking wasn't something Walt had really done that much before. Lots of straight guys who do stuff with other guys draw the line at that as being too gay.
Well, right. But now I wonder if the plausibility holds up for someone who interpreted Walt as not having any prior experience with men.
I guess it would depend on how Walt relates to going down on women and whether he can map that onto the experience? Possibly also whether he's gotten blowjobs from women that were more toppy-by-giver.
Er, by "straight guys" I mean men who've internalized the gay/straight dichotomy and identify as straight while having same sex relations. I actually think the dichotomy is bullshit, and that their clever little rationalizations about how the kind of male/male sex they're doing isn't actually gay is homophobic (and sexist) bullshit, but while I'm willing to call out the -ist stuff, far be it from me to challenge what someone self-identifies as, you know.
And, actually, historically speaking most of the same sex stuff that went on between men was understood in that way. I recently did a paper on sexuality in Renaissance Italy and their idea of m/m sex was similar to the Greeks and Romans, where it was about the idea of active vs. passive partner. Women, slaves, and young men were perceived as sexually passive receivers, and adult men as sexually active. So... in the original Greek/Roman cultures, it basically really didn't matter which gender a guy was fucking, as long as he was penetrating. The sexual ideas of Christianity got mixed in for the Renaissance folks, though... but the Catholic position at that time was that all non-procreative sex was bad, so same sex relations weren't really singled out as being that much worse than having a woman up the ass or whatever.
And in fact it was so common in Florence that charges of sodomy were only brought in cases of violent rape. If there was just some teacher dude fucking his 14 year old student--with or without emotional coercion--everybody was all.. ((shrug))
Same sex activites between women, of course, were considered physically unlikely/nigh impossible. Because the culture was phallocentric to a truly absurd degree.
Er... my lengthy ramble there is meant to say that the invention of homosexuality and queerness as a categories is a radical act separate from the reality of men engaging in same sex acts. And that men today who identify as straight while getting off with other men seem to be trying to hark back to a time before the invention of first homosexuality and then queer identity upset their sexist little apple cart.
I can't get into any discussion about the connection of sexual orientation with position/activity rather than object choice without thinking about my film comedy professor telling us about a time when an aging Bob Hope confessed in front of a crowd to having had sex with a guy, and then was baffled about everyone being scandalized, because he thought it had nothing to do with his sexual identity since he'd been on top. How did people think that made sense for so long?
Well, I mean, if you're thinking of sexuality as who you're attracted to, sex acts as having multiple meanings, and gender as fluid, then it makes no sense. But if you're conflating all that shit with rigid structures of dominantion, with sex acts as symbols of worth and stuff, then you're an asshole but an asshole with an internally consistent narrative nonetheless. It's a fucked up and shitty narrative and I wish it would DIAF, but it has history behind it. And it's not like it's self-evident to think otherwise, *particularly* not when thinking otherwise would mean that straight men who like to fuck men would have to reevaluate their massive, disgusting privilege.
It is kind of hilarious he thought everyone would share his ideas, though.
((sigh)) So, yeah, these two are just exactly perfect right here. Which is why the whole thing, like everythign with them, makes me so sad and conflicted.
One of the reasons I didn't explicitly mention the slash over on TWOP was because I kind of don't like seeing it? Because Walt is such an abusive fuck and the last thing Jesse needs is some dubcon to add to his traumas.
And, also, damn it, Walt is a horrible person and somehow he gets to have had not one but *two* hot young blond(e)s in his life? Statuesque Skylar and pretty twink Jesse. My sense of injustice rises at that. And my jealousy, TBH. ;)
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((sighs))((misses Jane))
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Yeah. I hear you on that. Though I really like the idea of him bottoming without the situation being such where he feels shamed about it. Or where it hurts in unfun ways. ((sigh)) Subby guys run into such a lot of shit from people with sexist ideas of masculinity and dominance. It's fucking ridiculous.
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This is just exactly how things would go down between them if they brought sex into their relationship.
I think there are some other plausible iterations of a sexual relationship between them, but this was meant as the most plausible and complete version I could think of. I'm glad it feels accurate to you. It would be nice if I thought some consensual BDSM would work for them, but they can't communicate well enough. Doesn't work. (I may have written a happier and totally consensual version of this relationship involving Daddy!kink, though, which was just barely on the right side of plausible.)
One of the reasons I didn't explicitly mention the slash over on TWOP was because I kind of don't like seeing it? Because Walt is such an abusive fuck and the last thing Jesse needs is some dubcon to add to his traumas.
Oh, God, I know. That's why I'll honestly admit to writing it before I'll ever actually claim to ship it. The thought of shipping something this dark and fucked-up makes me unhappy.
And, also, damn it, Walt is a horrible person and somehow he gets to have had not one but *two* hot young blond(e)s in his life? Statuesque Skylar and pretty twink Jesse. My sense of injustice rises at that. And my jealousy, TBH. ;)
Hee, yes. Totally not fair.
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Thank you for writing! Whenever I'm fascinated by a pairing, I always crave lengthy, well written fic of it. And I thought I'd got all of that I was going to get with fakepoptart's multi-chapter story, because this is such a minor fandom and such a small pairing. But no, there was your gorgeous work awaiting me! And it was so very, very good. DAMN, GURL. ((cheers))
I think there are some other plausible iterations of a sexual relationship between them, but this was meant as the most plausible and complete version I could think of. I'm glad it feels accurate to you.
I knew it was accurate when Walt kept disappointing the hell out of me and making me wince in disgust. LOL. God, the scene where they have dinner and it's a callback to Walt offering Jesse the breakfast his real family isn't around to want... oh, god. That was horrible and exactly true. And then how the sex got better for Jesse after he prodded at Walt's pride over being good at things... UGH. JESUS. Those are just the moments that stood out, but they certainly weren't alone. Everything felt really true.
Even the part where Walt had more experience with same sex relations than Jesse -- I've been wondering whether Walt and Eliot got up to some stuff in a very Marine barracks straight dudes touching each other sort of way. After their cups of 10 for 1.99 Ramen or whatever that was. LOL.
It would be nice if I thought some consensual BDSM would work for them, but they can't communicate well enough. Doesn't work.
Yeah. :-/ They are a slow motion train wreck with or without the sex. It's a tribute to the writing and acting that I still desperately wish things would be better for them both. Well, mostly Jesse. Walt's speech about never making choices in Season 1 pre-faced the fact that, whether he admits it or not, ultimately he's chosen this hell he's made for himself. This is a Noir without a femme fatale luring him to his fate. It's all his own character flaws and dark desires.
But Jesse... hell, as far as the structure of the story is concerned, Walt is kind of Jesse's femme fatale. Person with a sob story and a strange allure tantalizing him and manipulating him into deeper and deeper shit, beckoning him further off the safe path. Though since Jesse was already involved in criminal activity, it doesn't *quite* map. But he was presented as rather an innocent despite that, so...
Of the two of them, my point is that Walt's fate is chosen and actively sought, whereas Jesse is more the feckless Noir schlub who got caught up in something nasty. Fred MacMurrey to Walt's Barbara Stanwyck.
(I may have written a happier and totally consensual version of this relationship involving Daddy!kink, though, which was just barely on the right side of plausible.)
...damn, you wrote that? You, like, have a word document somewhere with that inside? Would it be possible for a soul to read that somehow? Have you considered posting?
Oh, God, I know. That's why I'll honestly admit to writing it before I'll ever actually claim to ship it. The thought of shipping something this dark and fucked-up makes me unhappy.
Yeah. I keep wanting to not see it. It's strange to me, because I'm primarily into het and femslash (because if there isn't a woman involved, I'm pretty uninterested), but this is just... so very there.
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Thanks. I'm usually more into oneshots, myself, but with this pairing I seem to have a craving for longer multi-chapter fic, too. I want to see the whole relationship. That's why I pestered fakepoptart to turn her fic into a series, and why I'm still trying to encourage her to continue it.
I knew it was accurate when Walt kept disappointing the hell out of me and making me wince in disgust. LOL.
Yeah. And I actually think I'm pretty nice to him here, considering how little I actually like him; I think he's sympathetic, still. It makes me sad to think that if there's a major issue with his characterization here versus season 4 so far, it's that I made him too attentive and kind to Jesse.
I've been wondering whether Walt and Eliot got up to
I've always maintained the possibility of some Walt/Elliot action in the past, but, for the record, I intended that moment in the fic to be ambiguous. I think it can also be read as Walt hiding the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing.
Walt is kind of Jesse's femme fatale.
Oh, that is awesome. Not least because I'm so very wary of the way that applying ideas about gender to Walt/Jesse tends to put Jesse unequivically in the feminine role, which means reinstating so much essentialist crap.
...damn, you wrote that? You, like, have a word document somewhere with that inside? Would it be possible for a soul to read that somehow? Have you considered posting?
The first part of the series is posted behind members-lock at bb_slash, along with another fic of mine. The rest of the series I wrote for a friend, and it's all posted at our private LJ clubhouse. If you like the first part, I can assemble the other parts and e-mail them to you, along with any of my other fics that I have posted there. As for posting them more widely: haven't decided yet. They require work that I won't have time to do for a while.
Thanks again for the review!
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Yeah. But I don't see that as a flaw because your fic is an AU -- it makes sense for different circumstances to lead to different behavior. Part of what makes it believable for me is that you're fic is set in a storyverse where Walt isn't allowed by Gus to "keep" Jesse as his lab assistant with the guaranteed regular contact that carries with it, which would naturally cause feelings of loss that could unsettle him enough to make him actually work more at their relationship, imo. It has in the past.
IDK, it worked for me.
Oh, that is awesome. Not least because I'm so very wary of the way that applying ideas about gender to Walt/Jesse tends to put Jesse unequivically in the feminine role, which means reinstating so much essentialist crap.
Oh GOD I hate that about slash/yaoi, how people do this fucking ugly shit where they're just buying right into gender essentialism and I'm, like, look, I could have a less sexist reading experience with some hetfic FFS. ((sigh)) I read stuff like that and I feel the noose tightening around my own neck, because of the author thinks so rigidly about gender that a man who's interpreted as feminine deserves to have no bodily autonomy, no respect, no alternation of nauseaus mandates for loss of self, obviously I as someone who's a woman am assumed by that standard to be even more trapped. It's just... ugh.
Fuck the patriarchy.
Returning to your fic for a sec, it made sense to me that Walt never agreed to be penetrated because of his issues and it was obvious that they were his issues as a dommy guy who identifies as straight fucking another man. Because he doesn't understand his domminess as a personality thing rather than a man thing, and he's working off cultural notions that got back to fucking Rome about how it's still manly to penetrate another man, but it's a loss of power to be penetrated.
The fact that Jesse would have been down with pitching, though, helped upset the idea that Walt was right in his assumptions. It didn't feel like the fic itself was saying penetration = submission entirely.
Walt is totally depriving himself because he doesn't get that one can top while being penetrated. So... his loss! lol
I've always maintained the possibility of some Walt/Elliot action in the past, but, for the record, I intended that moment in the fic to be ambiguous. I think it can also be read as Walt hiding the fact that he doesn't know what he's doing.
((nod)) Which he totally would. But I prefer the former reading because I've always liked the idea of queering his relationship to Eliot and Gretchen so that he's jealous of both of them for having the other. If he's just jealous of Eliot, then that makes Gretchen like a thing that goes with the money. A thing Walt doesn't have. I like it if Walt saw her kind of as competition as well as someone to be jealous over.
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Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, thanks for saying so, but I wasn't really making that comment to point out any kind of deficiency in the fic, but just to marvel for a second at how Walt can be as awful as he is here and it's still a positive alternative to the canon (so far, at least).
Returning to your fic for a sec, it made sense to me that Walt never agreed to be penetrated because of his issues and it was obvious that they were his issues as a dommy guy who identifies as straight fucking another man.
I'd be interested to hear how believable it felt to you that Walt would hold onto the inherited ideas about being penetrated as a sign of weakness/insuffcient masculinity, but was able to grasp the idea that giving a blow job is a more powerful/dominant position than receiving one and being totally cool with doing it. I mean, there's more to his reciprocation that just the power issues, stuff having to do with his justification of it all as something he's doing for Jesse's sake, but I intended that moment to play as surprising but still plausible.
But I prefer the former reading because I've always liked the idea of queering his relationship to Eliot and Gretchen so that he's jealous of both of them for having the other. If he's just jealous of Eliot, then that makes Gretchen like a thing that goes with the money. A thing Walt doesn't have. I like it if Walt saw her kind of as competition as well as someone to be jealous over.
Totally with you there.
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I thought the key there is that Walt distinguishes between different types of blowjobs. He wanted his blowjob from Jesse to be about Jesse's powerlessness -- he wanted to manipulate Jesse's body forcefully for himself, be in absolute control. That is, he wanted to be in control of his own level of sensation and when/how he came.
But when Walt was giving a blowjob, he did it in a way that was all about his control as well. Only giving as much sensation as he wanted the way he wanted, teasing Jesse and playing his body. He wanted to *make* Jesse lose control with his manipulations.
Now, being penetrated can have that complexity, too. But my own interpretation was that assfucking wasn't something Walt had really done that much before. Lots of straight guys who do stuff with other guys draw the line at that as being too gay. I could see Walt experimenting with handjobs and blowjobs and discovering the nuances but still holding a stereotypical idea of anal.
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Well, right. But now I wonder if the plausibility holds up for someone who interpreted Walt as not having any prior experience with men.
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I guess it would depend on how Walt relates to going down on women and whether he can map that onto the experience? Possibly also whether he's gotten blowjobs from women that were more toppy-by-giver.
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And, actually, historically speaking most of the same sex stuff that went on between men was understood in that way. I recently did a paper on sexuality in Renaissance Italy and their idea of m/m sex was similar to the Greeks and Romans, where it was about the idea of active vs. passive partner. Women, slaves, and young men were perceived as sexually passive receivers, and adult men as sexually active. So... in the original Greek/Roman cultures, it basically really didn't matter which gender a guy was fucking, as long as he was penetrating. The sexual ideas of Christianity got mixed in for the Renaissance folks, though... but the Catholic position at that time was that all non-procreative sex was bad, so same sex relations weren't really singled out as being that much worse than having a woman up the ass or whatever.
And in fact it was so common in Florence that charges of sodomy were only brought in cases of violent rape. If there was just some teacher dude fucking his 14 year old student--with or without emotional coercion--everybody was all.. ((shrug))
Same sex activites between women, of course, were considered physically unlikely/nigh impossible. Because the culture was phallocentric to a truly absurd degree.
Er... my lengthy ramble there is meant to say that the invention of homosexuality and queerness as a categories is a radical act separate from the reality of men engaging in same sex acts. And that men today who identify as straight while getting off with other men seem to be trying to hark back to a time before the invention of first homosexuality and then queer identity upset their sexist little apple cart.
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I hadn't heard of that. That's awesome.
How did people think that made sense for so long?
Well, I mean, if you're thinking of sexuality as who you're attracted to, sex acts as having multiple meanings, and gender as fluid, then it makes no sense. But if you're conflating all that shit with rigid structures of dominantion, with sex acts as symbols of worth and stuff, then you're an asshole but an asshole with an internally consistent narrative nonetheless. It's a fucked up and shitty narrative and I wish it would DIAF, but it has history behind it. And it's not like it's self-evident to think otherwise, *particularly* not when thinking otherwise would mean that straight men who like to fuck men would have to reevaluate their massive, disgusting privilege.
It is kind of hilarious he thought everyone would share his ideas, though.
Obviously not the most reflective person...
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