There's a scene in one of the missing year flashbacks in 6.20 where Cas is talking to Crowley and refuses to have Dean involved in the whole search for purgatory thing, so Crowley says that there's a bald-headed patriarch he can take off the bench. So I think it was, indeed, Crowley, with Cas's knowledge but not an idea that originated with Cas.
The problem is that that suggests that Samuel was in hell, in Crowley's domain, rather than heaven, as Samuel said. You can fanwank it that Samuel was lying to Sam and Dean to conceal his bargain with Crowley, but the Campbell plot is full of loose ends.
I don't think Samuel was in Hell. For one, with his soul and memories intact, that would suggest he should be waaaay more traumatized than he is, since he would have been in Hell since, oh, 1972. That's 4,800 years of torture, give or take. Heck, he wouldn't be human anymore.
That being said, there is precedent for a deal getting someone out of Heaven (Sam), and Crowley insinuates he can get Mary back and she's definitely not in Hell.
Bah. Stupid Campbell plotline. Why so full of holes? *shakes fist*
True. There's not exactly anyone for Crowley to be making a deal with, but having come at the job of King of Hell via head crossroads demon, he could probably just override the paperwork and get at Samuel. And maybe the fact that the whole family -- Samuel and Mary as well as Sam and Dean -- had been pieces on the angels and demons playing board meant that they were particularly accessible. That could be why Crowley thought of Samuel as someone he had on his bench, rather than bringing back, say, Colt, or some other random legendary hunter of the past.
CROWLEY We'll need expert help. CASTIEL From whom? CROWLEY From experts, of course. I know of two eerily suited 'Teen Beat' models with time on their hands. CASTIEL No. Not Dean. He's retired, and he's to stay that way. CROWLEY Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. The point is...They can get us to the monsters. The monsters can get us to Purgatory. I know it.
Which I think definitively rules out Cas being the one who brought Samuel bag, but I misremembered Crowley's words -- he just said he knows of Samuel and can take him off the bench, not that he HAD Samuel. That fits with Samuel being in heaven but Crowley being able to get him, I think.
See, this never made any sense to me and I don't know that it means that Crowley did the *actual* extraction. I was always of the head canon that Crowley had Balthazar on the take (like with the removal of the items from the heavenly arsenal) and that he got Balth to do the actual Samuel Extraction.
Because if the King of Hell can just go waltzing into Heaven and making deals with saved souls, then there is a MUCH bigger problem with the barriers between these two kingdoms than I have been lead to believe.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think Crowley is a sneaky little bastard and can pull off most heists. Just not in Heaven.
On the other hand, if Crowley is somehow helping Balthazar to stay off the Angel Radar in exchange for things like weapons, then I think ganking one cranky old man would be on the menu as well.
And really, the promise to get Mary doesn't prove anything to me. Crowley also said that he could get Sam's soul and he lied about that to get what he wanted...
My reaction to that bit of dialogue was "Ha! I knew it! Samuel so was not "pulled down" from Heaven." My gut reaction when Samuel had said he was "pulled down" had been liar-liar-pants-on-fire.
Maybe being in Hell wasn't all torment all the time for people who weren't important; like, not enough to shred them to bits emotionally.
Dean was tortured to the limit of Alastair's considerable abilities because they needed to break him to get started on the seals.
Maybe a little hanging from a rack, a little being flayed, a little flaying others, etc., didn't especially traumatize Samuel even if it went on for 4800 years. Maybe he's just not that sensitive or that deep.
Crowley said a problem with old Hell was that torture wasn't that big a torment for all comers; waiting in line is a torment for everyone.
The problem is that that suggests that Samuel was in hell, in Crowley's domain, rather than heaven, as Samuel said. You can fanwank it that Samuel was lying to Sam and Dean to conceal his bargain with Crowley, but the Campbell plot is full of loose ends.
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That being said, there is precedent for a deal getting someone out of Heaven (Sam), and Crowley insinuates he can get Mary back and she's definitely not in Hell.
Bah. Stupid Campbell plotline. Why so full of holes? *shakes fist*
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CROWLEY We'll need expert help.
CASTIEL From whom?
CROWLEY From experts, of course. I know of two eerily suited 'Teen Beat' models with time on their hands.
CASTIEL No. Not Dean. He's retired, and he's to stay that way.
CROWLEY Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. The point is...They can get us to the monsters. The monsters can get us to Purgatory. I know it.
Which I think definitively rules out Cas being the one who brought Samuel bag, but I misremembered Crowley's words -- he just said he knows of Samuel and can take him off the bench, not that he HAD Samuel. That fits with Samuel being in heaven but Crowley being able to get him, I think.
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Because if the King of Hell can just go waltzing into Heaven and making deals with saved souls, then there is a MUCH bigger problem with the barriers between these two kingdoms than I have been lead to believe.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think Crowley is a sneaky little bastard and can pull off most heists. Just not in Heaven.
On the other hand, if Crowley is somehow helping Balthazar to stay off the Angel Radar in exchange for things like weapons, then I think ganking one cranky old man would be on the menu as well.
And really, the promise to get Mary doesn't prove anything to me. Crowley also said that he could get Sam's soul and he lied about that to get what he wanted...
*shrug*
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Maybe being in Hell wasn't all torment all the time for people who weren't important; like, not enough to shred them to bits emotionally.
Dean was tortured to the limit of Alastair's considerable abilities because they needed to break him to get started on the seals.
Maybe a little hanging from a rack, a little being flayed, a little flaying others, etc., didn't especially traumatize Samuel even if it went on for 4800 years. Maybe he's just not that sensitive or that deep.
Crowley said a problem with old Hell was that torture wasn't that big a torment for all comers; waiting in line is a torment for everyone.
*shrug* just my 2 cents
Jackie
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