So tl;dr :c Also, MAN HE WANTS YOU TO SHUT UP ABOUT THE DOCTOR.raisedinaboxJuly 13 2011, 20:54:20 UTC
[Pause]
[Pause pause. He's actually a little irritated by this now.]
Rex, the Doctor was working in the infirmary, and the infirmary was full of people who needed his help. Myself included. He wasn't in any position to run around the Barge investigating anything, and I wouldn't, and didn't expect him too.
I don't think that Edward did react perfectly to the situation, but considering almost the entire warden population was focused on either trying to kill Sveta, trying to stop people from killing Sveta, and trying to stop people from accidentally killing themselves, it wasn't exactly an ideal time for him to go looking for backup.
If your warden disappeared tomorrow, and then immediately afterward, oh, I don't know, let's say Victor, was suddenly struck down with a nasty case of nanomite inspired suffering of some kind? Wardens would be breaking your door down to check if it was you, and they would be within their rights to do so, because in addition to being in control of our lives, they actually have a responsibility to try and keep us from suffering. This responsibility sometimes impedes upon our freedoms, because that is how civilization works.
This wasn't just breaking into someone's room to rifle through their belongings and harass them, it was him trying to get a specific piece of information which could have prevented my torture. In the real world it's the kind of thing that he could have gotten a warrant for, and if he'd been in his right mind I'm sure he would have taken the on Barge equivalent and just contacted Snape, but being as this is the Barge, and he wasn't in his right mind? Yes, he was entitled to do this.
Trust me, I know it's far from the perfect way for him to have dealt with it? But regardless of who he was doing it for, it took place under remarkable circumstances which prevented Edward from taking the ideal course of action, and which would have made it difficult to enlist the help of other wardens, and due to the nature of what I was experiencing the option of waiting for things to calm down so that he could enlist other wardens to help him? Could very easily have ended with me spending days re-living being assaulted by my Father.
Without the combination of this specific form of mental distortion, the extreme level of chaos generated by the question of whether or not to kill Sveta, and the pressure to act fast to prevent extensive damage being done? This would not have happened the way it did, and under the same circumstances, I think that while it may not have been the perfect course of action? It doesn't represent any undue negligence or abuse on Edward's part, and punishing him just because Mozenrath is angry and he has a bad reputation? Would be out of line.
READING THIS IS LIKE HOMEWORK, CATHERINEstopthat_destroJuly 13 2011, 21:14:02 UTC
Considering I was working in the infirmary as well, the entire time, I'm well aware of how busy it was. But since you decided to assert that no other warden could have possibly cared, I felt you needed correction. That was at least one. Nygma could have easily drafted others, since not all of them were busy dealing with Sveta.
And speaking of, let's look at the debate about that. This entire weekend, and the days that followed, we've been told that you can't commit a crime against somebody in order to stop a crime. This is the same thing on a smaller scale. And since I didn't think Sveta should have been killed to save others-- despite death and near-death and all manner of injuries-- neither are you going to convince me that Mozenrath deserved to have his room broken into and his private communications stolen by a rogue warden just to help you.
And it's funny you should mention wardens being well within their rights to jump on me over a crime of which they have no evidence whatsoever of my involvement, because that's already happened to me before. A warden decided to jump up, declare me guilty of a crime because it looked like I could've committed it, and completely fucked up my life as a result. So you'll have to forgive me if, as somebody who's been falsely accused of heinous crimes multiple times, my heart doesn't melt for Nygma. He wasn't within his rights to do anything to Mozenrath. Just like he wasn't within his rights to break into my room when he tried it-- again, without speaking with any other warden. And, oh, wouldn't you know? He didn't even have a curse to hide behind that time. [Rex wasn't even going to talk about that affair beyond his one comment to Mozenrath, but now he's going to just to spite you :c]
He didn't have to wait days at all. There are so many wardens on this ship, it's absurd to try to convince people that it was either this-- violating one inmate to save another-- or days of inaction. You're just trying to save his face because he did this to you.
And, as I already said and I suppose I'll say again: this isn't about punishing Nygma because somebody's upset. If anything happens at all, it should be about showing the wardens that they can't expect to get away with violating the rights of an inmate they have no authority over. It's about the wardens showing their fellows what they will and will not tolerate.
I'm not going to sit back and nod my head as the wardens legitimize breaking and entering so long as you have a strong enough hunch and an excuse just to protect your knight in shining armor, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.
To be honest, I only originally brought it up to tease you. Now I'm mentioning it again to spite him. [You're just collateral damage, bro :c HE LIKES YOU, REALLY.]
And as I already said, I don't want to see you needlessly punished over this. But I'm not going to let him try to justify something that's already been done to me in the past by other wardens. My rights as an inmate-- what little I have-- come before anything else.
It... [Frustrated sigh. God he hates empathy.] He must care for your friendship a lot, to be driven to say all of that in public to support you.
What evidence?
[He snorts.] These are the same people who wouldn't even investigate my murder. Of course they won't look into this. They're so complacent, they'll only pursue cases where the criminal confesses
That was what halted the few attempts at uncovering my murderer, too. Evidence. Because my eyewitness testimony wasn't enough for them. You may as well try to bring it to them, just so you can point to their inaction when they turn on you later.
IN BY NINE AM TOMORROW, ROS C:raisedinaboxJuly 13 2011, 21:58:13 UTC
Are you sure, Rex? Because it seemed like you were just looking for an excuse to air your ridiculous issues regarding me and the Doctor. What I was saying is that there wasn't anyone whose responsibility it was to actually investigate or work to correct what had been done to me, and I was hardly in a position to demand it. Haven't you been in a position similar to that in the past? Where you were murdered by a vampire and none of the wardens even tried to investigate it, until you'd made multiple requests for them to take some kind of action? [Lol, Jim's creeper side is showing :c]
I'm going to repeat myself again, this wasn't Edward accusing Mozenrath of doing this. It wasn't him jumping up and declaring him guilty of anything! He was trying to get a list of people who could have had the means to do this to me, so that he could find a way to undo it!
[He pauses for a moment. Then takes a breath.]
I'm sorry. I think what we're arguing about here is... probably somewhere in the details of what we're actually arguing about. There's definitely a point where it becomes the wardens responsibility to investigate a crime, using force if necessary, but honestly, I can appreciate that what's happened to you in the past isn't right, and... god knows Edward has the worst track record for this on the entire Barge.
To my mind? The issue of needing to act fast, the fact that what he actually wanted was relatively modest, and knowing that Mozenraths public and extensive work with potions meant he was likely to have been involved at least tangentially? Is enough reason to justify what he did, even if he still acted... unilaterally.
I understand that you disagree with that, and that's a reasonable opinion as well, but I don't think you can dismiss it as a rogue warden breaking and entering, when I sincerely think that it was just a warden with... slightly poor judgment, doing his job. I don't want Edward to be punished for something I think was justified, but I understand not wanting wardens to be allowed to abuse their inmates.
Really, I think this is something that the wardens need to resolve amongst themselves, so that in instances such as this, this argument won't have to happen.
My situation was different. That wasn't a case of having no advocate; it was a case of the wardens deciding, en masse, that my murder wasn't even worth investigating--
[ARGH NO, NEVERMIND. He calms down, too.]
But no, you're right. We're arguing about different things. And I am sorry for what happened to you. [EVEN THOUGH I HATE YOU.]
Polite response!raisedinaboxJuly 14 2011, 12:04:30 UTC
You know-- [SIGH, Eddie's certainty now that you made the potion kind of undermined his point here, but:] --If what you were telling him was true, and you really wouldn't have sold poison, then a list of transactions would have given him an insight into whether anyone had asked for something that could have been built upon to create these effects, or even anyone who you'd rejected.
Again, I'm sorry that this fell to you, but you are known for being... well, our resident potions master. [Lol what? He pre-dates the Harry Potter franchise :c] It makes sense that anyone else who was capable of this would have had some contact with you.
I don't think it makes sense at all. I'm not exactly one for making alliances, and I'm only known for it if you've been here a long time. I haven't sold in literally months. You don't exactly see me posting advertisements because it's not lucrative or entertaining to try to sell a product when half your customers disappear before they get the payment to you.
I'm sorry, Mozenrath, but you can't expect Edward, or anyone else, to know of your alliance making tendencies. People here do tend to become part of the community for long periods of time.
I can understand that - knowing that you didn't do this - you can see all the reasons why it had nothing to do with you, but the rest of us don't have the benefit of those insights, and you mentioned making potions for people several times, even if it was months ago.
[Pause pause. He's actually a little irritated by this now.]
Rex, the Doctor was working in the infirmary, and the infirmary was full of people who needed his help. Myself included. He wasn't in any position to run around the Barge investigating anything, and I wouldn't, and didn't expect him too.
I don't think that Edward did react perfectly to the situation, but considering almost the entire warden population was focused on either trying to kill Sveta, trying to stop people from killing Sveta, and trying to stop people from accidentally killing themselves, it wasn't exactly an ideal time for him to go looking for backup.
If your warden disappeared tomorrow, and then immediately afterward, oh, I don't know, let's say Victor, was suddenly struck down with a nasty case of nanomite inspired suffering of some kind? Wardens would be breaking your door down to check if it was you, and they would be within their rights to do so, because in addition to being in control of our lives, they actually have a responsibility to try and keep us from suffering. This responsibility sometimes impedes upon our freedoms, because that is how civilization works.
This wasn't just breaking into someone's room to rifle through their belongings and harass them, it was him trying to get a specific piece of information which could have prevented my torture. In the real world it's the kind of thing that he could have gotten a warrant for, and if he'd been in his right mind I'm sure he would have taken the on Barge equivalent and just contacted Snape, but being as this is the Barge, and he wasn't in his right mind? Yes, he was entitled to do this.
Trust me, I know it's far from the perfect way for him to have dealt with it? But regardless of who he was doing it for, it took place under remarkable circumstances which prevented Edward from taking the ideal course of action, and which would have made it difficult to enlist the help of other wardens, and due to the nature of what I was experiencing the option of waiting for things to calm down so that he could enlist other wardens to help him? Could very easily have ended with me spending days re-living being assaulted by my Father.
Without the combination of this specific form of mental distortion, the extreme level of chaos generated by the question of whether or not to kill Sveta, and the pressure to act fast to prevent extensive damage being done? This would not have happened the way it did, and under the same circumstances, I think that while it may not have been the perfect course of action? It doesn't represent any undue negligence or abuse on Edward's part, and punishing him just because Mozenrath is angry and he has a bad reputation? Would be out of line.
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And speaking of, let's look at the debate about that. This entire weekend, and the days that followed, we've been told that you can't commit a crime against somebody in order to stop a crime. This is the same thing on a smaller scale. And since I didn't think Sveta should have been killed to save others-- despite death and near-death and all manner of injuries-- neither are you going to convince me that Mozenrath deserved to have his room broken into and his private communications stolen by a rogue warden just to help you.
And it's funny you should mention wardens being well within their rights to jump on me over a crime of which they have no evidence whatsoever of my involvement, because that's already happened to me before. A warden decided to jump up, declare me guilty of a crime because it looked like I could've committed it, and completely fucked up my life as a result. So you'll have to forgive me if, as somebody who's been falsely accused of heinous crimes multiple times, my heart doesn't melt for Nygma. He wasn't within his rights to do anything to Mozenrath. Just like he wasn't within his rights to break into my room when he tried it-- again, without speaking with any other warden. And, oh, wouldn't you know? He didn't even have a curse to hide behind that time. [Rex wasn't even going to talk about that affair beyond his one comment to Mozenrath, but now he's going to just to spite you :c]
He didn't have to wait days at all. There are so many wardens on this ship, it's absurd to try to convince people that it was either this-- violating one inmate to save another-- or days of inaction. You're just trying to save his face because he did this to you.
And, as I already said and I suppose I'll say again: this isn't about punishing Nygma because somebody's upset. If anything happens at all, it should be about showing the wardens that they can't expect to get away with violating the rights of an inmate they have no authority over. It's about the wardens showing their fellows what they will and will not tolerate.
I'm not going to sit back and nod my head as the wardens legitimize breaking and entering so long as you have a strong enough hunch and an excuse just to protect your knight in shining armor, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.
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(The comment has been removed)
And as I already said, I don't want to see you needlessly punished over this. But I'm not going to let him try to justify something that's already been done to me in the past by other wardens. My rights as an inmate-- what little I have-- come before anything else.
If you want to meet in person, that's fine.
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(The comment has been removed)
What evidence?
[He snorts.] These are the same people who wouldn't even investigate my murder. Of course they won't look into this. They're so complacent, they'll only pursue cases where the criminal confesses
You do.
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(The comment has been removed)
Surprise me.
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I'm going to repeat myself again, this wasn't Edward accusing Mozenrath of doing this. It wasn't him jumping up and declaring him guilty of anything! He was trying to get a list of people who could have had the means to do this to me, so that he could find a way to undo it!
[He pauses for a moment. Then takes a breath.]
I'm sorry. I think what we're arguing about here is... probably somewhere in the details of what we're actually arguing about. There's definitely a point where it becomes the wardens responsibility to investigate a crime, using force if necessary, but honestly, I can appreciate that what's happened to you in the past isn't right, and... god knows Edward has the worst track record for this on the entire Barge.
To my mind? The issue of needing to act fast, the fact that what he actually wanted was relatively modest, and knowing that Mozenraths public and extensive work with potions meant he was likely to have been involved at least tangentially? Is enough reason to justify what he did, even if he still acted... unilaterally.
I understand that you disagree with that, and that's a reasonable opinion as well, but I don't think you can dismiss it as a rogue warden breaking and entering, when I sincerely think that it was just a warden with... slightly poor judgment, doing his job. I don't want Edward to be punished for something I think was justified, but I understand not wanting wardens to be allowed to abuse their inmates.
Really, I think this is something that the wardens need to resolve amongst themselves, so that in instances such as this, this argument won't have to happen.
Reply
[ARGH NO, NEVERMIND. He calms down, too.]
But no, you're right. We're arguing about different things. And I am sorry for what happened to you. [EVEN THOUGH I HATE YOU.]
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He wasn't thinking about finding you an antidote, sir. He didn't even ask me to try to make one.
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Again, I'm sorry that this fell to you, but you are known for being... well, our resident potions master. [Lol what? He pre-dates the Harry Potter franchise :c] It makes sense that anyone else who was capable of this would have had some contact with you.
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I can understand that - knowing that you didn't do this - you can see all the reasons why it had nothing to do with you, but the rest of us don't have the benefit of those insights, and you mentioned making potions for people several times, even if it was months ago.
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