On claiming an identity and exploring arrogance

[rainsavannah]

So, Alexandra said something interesting the other day, and then again on a recent post of mine.

I was talking about how I feel really embarrassed and inadequate sometimes because I didn't choose to pursue math, engineering, the sciences. I am a feminist; I am supposed to be breaking boundaries and proving girls can do all kinds of manly things too

Comments

[onerodetoasabay]

I love all of this.

----

As an aside to the first few things you mentioned:

Honestly, I'm guilty of the thinking that more women should be in math, science, and especially engineering. And that's not to say that women who are in other fields are somehow totally worthless or less intelligent--I have no doubts about your intelligence or abilities, for example. Even so, it really bothers me to hear people talk about feminism and breaking boundaries and smashing that the age-old belief that women are somehow intellectually inferior to men... and yet I still find myself as one of the lone girls in my CS classes in 2010. What the hell happened? I consider myself a feminist but it's certainly not easy to fight the established sexist norms when you're alone.

It sounds extremely unfair and biased of me to say this but I sincerely dislike fields like Women's Studies--from my limited exposure through one WS class, it just struck me as a field where people talk about all these nice things but more often than not they're preaching to the choir. My thinking is that you can talk about ideas and concepts all you want all day but what exactly is getting done? What progress is being made? I want people to understand the importance of feminism but I also want it taken outside of WS-focused things into engineering or science classes and especially CS since this is one of the few fields of engineering and technology that is still dramatically lacking in women.

Alright, I think I got a little side-tracked at the end (and I hijacked your original post) but I think I portrayed my viewpoint accurately. Am I holding a valid position here or am I vocalizing an element of sexism in myself that I wasn't even aware of? Hope this didn't sound accusatory or anything--I'd honestly like to engage in a conversation about this kind of thing and accumulate more information about it and ultimately try to find out where exactly I stand on it.

[rainsavannah]

I definitely think more women need to be in math, science, and engineering! I think it's a serious problem, and think you're totally in the right. It's because I think we need more women in these fields that I often feel guilty-- like I'm letting down the team, and like I generally not as badass as I would like to be-- about going into more traditionally female fields. And I feel like not helping prove that women are smart too. But--why do I think that pursuing social sciences and language makes me less smart?

The fact is that I love and excel at languages, and I'd guess that I'd probably feel that way if I were raised in a gender neutral society too (though I'd have gotten a lot more experience than I have now). Frankly, I always did well enough at most fields, so I'd probably have been decent at STEM fields, if not anything special. But I could, maybe, be really great at languages. Isn't that a better use of my energy? So I'm trying to remind myself that this is a still a valuable pursuit, and I think that we undervalue it as a society because it's associated with girls.

So I think this is where I accidentally end up perhaps being a little sexist, and where a lot of the girls I know who are into more traditionally men's pursuits/fashion/whatever sometimes end up being sexist: we build a lot of our self-worth on how much we AREN'T associated with anything to do with girls. We do math just like the boys and play video games just like the boys and don't wear make-up or pink and therefore we are better than other girls--because we are more like men. Why should men be the (only) standard for what's worthwhile? I also see this in a TON of my friends who have told me over the years that they have 'never had close girl friends' (to me, their close girls friend), because they find that whole stereotype of girlhood so unappealling--because we're told girly things are shallow, vain, and stupid.

At risk of repeating myself, what I am trying to say is that to break the belief that women are intellectually inferior to men, we have to stop implying that the things women do are stupid. There has to be a way to break into male-dominated fields without the logic being that the more we're like men, the more worthwhile we are.

In the meantime, you ROCK for being a CS major. Especially since the number of women has actually gone DOWN in the last ten years or so. I think we're never going to mobilize most individual women on the logic of 'do it for the cause!', so breaking the Dude Culture is probably key(seriously, male geeks are some of the most unbreakable misogynists I know). Hooray to you for fucking with it.

[hatmakersophie]

we build a lot of our self-worth on how much we AREN'T associated with anything to do with girls.

I wrote something very similar in a goodreads review--I tore this book up that everyone loved, because it had such a "strong" female lead. Except the thing about her was that every strength of hers was traditionally male, and was defined by maleness in the book. She wasn't strong because of her gender, she was strong in spite of it. So I completely agree (and it happens to be my most popular review!) I agree with everything you've said, because we still define strength and self-worth based on how manly we can act, and how un-female we are. It makes me sad to see other girls devaluing traditional "female" things rather than finding the strength and equality in them. Instead, I try my hardest to define my own self-worth and my gender perception of others based on how gender neutral I can appear or they appear. Which is really hard if you think about it.

I think I said this to you before, but honestly, just by valuing yourself and speaking of your accomplishments with the confidence that they're worth (and that you're worth) you're doing the best thing you can do--proving that the "female fields" aren't any lesser than the "male fields"--they aren't easier, they aren't less intellectual, and they matter JUST as much. Sometimes I catch myself defining my self-worth based on the male gender--well I like action movies, not romantic comedies, so I'm more awesome than most people, when in reality I should be thinking that on top of gory action movies, I like Grey's Anatomy, which means nobody can put me in a box or guess what sorts of media I'll like, because I like or dislike indiscriminately and randomly, not because I'm a girly girl or a tomboy. Of which I consider myself both. I like skeletons AND kittens.

And I've had great friendships with female friends. One of the things we talked about in WGS class was that girls are taught to hate other girls as a way of undermining the strength that can be found in a female friendship--if we're at each others' throats, we'll not be able to find solidarity.

Whew, I sound preachy. Sorry 'bout that ;)

[onerodetoasabay]

I just realized that lj never sent me notifications for this and I was wondering what the hell was going on... bah, it's too late to think and formulate a reply now. More thoughts on this forthcoming--

[thisisvienna]

I used to feel similarly about WGS. For me, that was largely misdirected bitterness due to having been painfully treated as an object by a male; it seemed to me that if that kind of thing was still happening, then WGS must not have really been accomplishing anything. It also irked me because it seemed that WGS just promoted gender inequality - after all, there's no Men's Studies program, so the presence of a Women's Studies program just added to the idea that women are not like men.

However, I've mellowed out a bit. It still seems to me that if feminism is going to work, then eventually it has to disappear. But I do think that it's important to study things from a female point of view, just like it's important to study things from a male point of view, and a Native American point of view, and an African point of view, and every point of view, because that's how we arrive at the most accurate picture of history. The object of WGS, it seems to me, isn't to advance women in society in a practical sense, e.g. by raising women's job placements in hard sciences. It's a way of studying society - like sociology, like philosophy, and so forth. It says, mainly to the (traditionally male-dominated) academic world, that women are just as intelligent and important as everybody else. And I think that's worthwhile.

Honestly, I don't really label myself as a feminist. I believe in treating all people equally, taking people on an individual by individual basis, and not keeping people from pursuing happiness, so long as they're not hurting anybody else (e.g., gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody else). Of course, that view is totally consistent with feminism, so I also couldn't really deny that I am one.

I do think it's great that you're pursuing CS, but I think it's great because you like it, not because you're a woman. It's great that nobody tells you you shouldn't - or those that do aren't loud enough to stop you. Ultimately, everybody should be allowed to do what they like in peace.

[hatmakersophie]

A very subjective way to look at things, but a cynical person could argue that the regular subjects ARE men's studies, because they usually focus on white males, and when others are added into the canon or academic research or what have you, it is with great effort and with a lot of pointing out: oh, we have a Woman of Color writing this article for us. Lookie here!