Love less than perfect

[rahirah]

A lot of people who ship Spike/Buffy do so on the basis of Spike's speech in "Touched" - he's seen Buffy at her best and her worst, and still loves her, without expecting anything from her in return. His love for her is pure and selfless. What I sometimes wonder, though, is... does Buffy return the favor?

That's not to say that I think Buffy

Comments

[angearia]

I think Buffy would be the last person to idealize Spike. I think it's more that the transition from her hating him to loving him has odd starts and stops. I'm reminded of when she says she "sometimes" likes him during Season 6 when they're laughing and actually having "a conversation" while lying under the carpets.

Buffy becomes so insulated and even repressed emotionally as a character by Season 7, so it's not the standard love affair for her. Not in terms of the declarations one would normally expect and the ones we in fact get from Spike. Rather, that when it comes down to doing her duty and believing in him because he needs her belief, she unlocks his chains and sets him free. The key moments to me that determine her emotional love are to me based on what she's willing to do for Spike. Like when Xander is kidnapped by a demon, but Spike gets knocked down and she runs to his side even though Spike isn't hurt. Or the way she calls his crypt "cozy" -- she looks back on his crypt with a smile and fond memories in Season 7

[auroramama]

Mmmm, I like that: in Chosen she's refound the fire she sang about, but it burns without hurting either of them.

[gabrielleabelle]

See, there's a reason I read comments first. Cause, inevitably, someone will have already said a lot of my thoughts. :)

[gabrielleabelle]

(I might be coming off a bit argumentative here because I've been arguing on Buffy's behalf elsewhere that she is in fact a hero. Sigh.)

Also, OMGWTFBBQ? Where?

[angearia]

Here on Whedonesque they linked to a list of the Top Ten Whedonverse Heroes--Buffy is noticeably absent. And many people went huh? that she was left off the list. Then some people were like "oh yeah, she's not a hero" and cited Anya saying that Buffy was "luckier than" others because she got superpowers and was chosen. Grrr.

[gabrielleabelle]

See, this is why I don't read the comments at Whedonesque. Too much dumb.

[angearia]

Agreed. That's why I only posted the once. No point in arguing the point with people so devoted to not getting it

[gabrielleabelle]

I think it's love for the big things that causes a person to love the quirks. When you have the former, the latter will follow.

I can see Buffy coming down from a post-coital high and slapping Spike on the chest and saying, "Don't think this gets you off of dish duty. Clean up your mess or I'm throwing out those weird blood popsicles you make and keep in the freezer."

Somebody should write this.

*waits*

[angearia]

Yes. Exactly. When you love someone, that's what makes those little things endearing

[gabrielleabelle]

(sidebar: did Buffy ever say "I love you" to Riley)

No, she did not. Spike is the first person she said, "I love you" to in a (presumably) romantic way since Angel.

[angearia]

Which continues my belief that Buffy's romantic disintegration from her affair with Angel is then healed through the juxtaposition of her relationship with Spike. With a vampire who fights to win back his soul through loving her vs. losing it in loving her. Who she trusts vs. who she's not sure she can trust yet she still keeps risking herself for him. With a vampire who sacrifices himself to save the world (for her) vs. a vampire she has to sacrifice to save the world.

[2maggie2]

That is *so* the story I want Joss to be telling. I've done a whole meta on it! But once season 8 was announced, I've been at the mercy of the story. We'll find out soon enough if this really was the story Joss was telling. There's plenty in season 8 that would totally go in that direction, so I haven't been Jossed yet. Quite the contrary. But I'm also not remotely willing to bet that I have him right and that the story will cash out the things I think are there to be cashed out. We'll see soon enough!

[angearia]

I'm ever hopeful! I like to think he was always aware of how Buffy and Angel were destructive for each other and how he deliberately set Spike to do the opposite in his writer's mind. I guess because that's how I would do it, thinking about character construction and the symbolism of the arcs.

[2maggie2]

If we stop at Chosen, I confidently write meta like my Buffy's Dance with the Vamps piece. If the story is done, I can't be Jossed, and the reading fits the story through Chosen perfectly, whether it was intended or not.

Indeed, I have a vague ambition of doing a reading of each episode of the entire series as if this was the main point of the Buffy/Angel/Spike saga. It can be done!! There's a lot there!!!!

But season 8 means everything's in play, and I might not get my way. And that makes me very afraid. And hopeful. And then even more afraid.

[prophecygirrl]

This is beautiful and perfect. Thank you!

[deird1]

Heaps of agreement from over here...

You are very very wise.