I finally got caught up on this season's Fringe. I'm having a bit of the same reaction I had when they introduced Dawn in BtVS. I do want to know how things are different now (and how things were different without Peter), but I also feel just a bit robbed about the history I did watch as it appears to be obsolete. I'm also somewhat inspired to rewatch earlier seasons and see if I can kind of pinpoint where Peter changed things in particular ways...
I didn't really watch these four episodes thinking that there was a Peter-shaped hole in their lives (with the important exception of Walter), but that his absence gave them space to be something else and to develop links and relationships that didn't grow when he was around.
Agreed. However, for Walter's sake, he really, really, really needed to be back. Interesting, though, how his absence hasn't really meant anything negative for Olivia that I've been able to observe. This is going to be hard on Peter (assuming the writers let it go on), which is fine with me, as I'm still holding a bit of a grudge about Fauxlivia last year. I am very sad for him though as I don't think he ever imagined that doing what he did would result in him having never existed (which is somehow sadder than just dying).
In the first and second seasons, Peter felt very superfluous to me, except as a companion for Walter. I guess I wasn't wrong to feel that way.
And, totally off-subject, but it's absolutely criminal that John Noble doesn't get more attention for the work he does on Fringe. What a bunch of morons nominations folks are.
I also feel just a bit robbed about the history I did watch as it appears to be obsolete.
I definitely know what you mean, but I'm certain that it won't last. They're at the very least going to regain their memories of Peter sooner or later (or even get a complete reset, which I don't really want) so I'm not too worried about it.
I agree about Walter, he needs Peter. His biggest decicions (and mistakes) have revolved around Peter, he's his son, and his life is broken without him. That's not the case for Olivia, but then again, despite the season 3 retcon that they met as kids, he hasn't been a part of her life for a long time and he wasn't really an influence that shaped her. They can tell me that Olivia's life was incomplete without him all they want, but I remember that when the show started, Olivia was in love with a guy (and she was smiling and happy with him), she had a partner and a friend in Charlie, and she had a sister and a niece she was close to. There was only place for Peter because John died, then Charlie died (which is when Peter became more important in her life); and once she came back from the red universe, her sister and her niece, who had such a big place in her life before, practically disappeared and she became all about Peter, Peter, Peter. But even before meeting him, she was someone who was able to form and to maintain relationships, she wasn't exactly such a sad loner; or if she was, it was in large part because her boyfriend and her friend had died recently. So it would make sense that she simply developed other relationships. I know it goes against the idea that they're an epic interdimensional love story, but that's what I'm seeing on the show.
If anything, because she didn't meet Peter as a kid and didn't talk to him about her abuse, which led her to confide in Walter (who confronted her stepfather), she killed him for good this time instead of just wounding him. That's not necessarily a good thing in itself, given how young she was, but it means that she's not confronted with the birthday cards her stepfather taunts her with every year in the blue universe. And she did run away, which young Peter convinced her not to do. At some point, according to the writers, Nina became her (and Rachel's) guardian, which means that she still has a maternal figure in her life. I actually like the life this Olivia has in this universe, I also like that she's closer to Astrid (plus the fact that alt!Broyles is alive, just like all the other cortexiphan, presumably), which I why I don't want a reset.
I still hold a grudge about the Peter and Altlivia thing. Not just because he was deceived, but because 1)he noticed a difference, he liked it and he was stupid enough to tell that to Olivia. 2)Once he told her that, he didn't seem to understand why she didn't trust the depth of his feelings. When she hesitated in starting something with him, he gave her that awfully condescending speech about the fact that she was the only thing standing in the way of their relationship and that she should basically get over her hurt feelings. Everything about his attitude rubbed me the wrong way and he didn't seem to realise that he was the direct cause of Olivia's insecurity. So I don't mind this reversal. At least this time, it's the universe that erased him, which is not as hurtful to the ego as the fact that the people you love either didn't notice you were replaced or they noticed and thought: "Hey, I like this new Olivia!" But yes, I agree that it's sad for him.
I'm honestly glad to see him back, because I LOVE his relationship with Walter. I just don't want him to become front and center at Olivia's character expense like in the second half of last season. For some reason, I'd like it if the characters kept two sets of memories once they remember Peter. It would make things interesting.
The Emmys completely ignoring this show and John Noble in particular is becoming ridiculous. I remember that when the latest nominations were announced and the press made a list of what they'd missed, a dozen papers -- the NYT among them -- mentioned John Noble and Anna Torv. The disdain for sci-fi will never cease to annoy me.
They're at the very least going to regain their memories of Peter sooner or later (or even get a complete reset, which I don't really want) so I'm not too worried about it.
I'm a fickle beast as I don't want this version of the alt-universes to go away either. I want my cake and to eat it too. Of course, from the miniscule amount I understand about string theory that's possible :P
I know it goes against the idea that they're an epic interdimensional love story, but that's what I'm seeing on the show.
Heh. But they could be another Bangel :) Kidding. I don't see or want this as I don't see the entire show being about Peter and Olivia and don't want to see it be about it either. Instead, it's *very* plot-driven and very much about the *other* relationships. I'd like it to stay that way. The fact that the writers have been willing to let Peter be completely gone for several episodes (and that it's worked so well) gives me hope that they get this as well.
If anything, because she didn't meet Peter as a kid and didn't talk to him about her abuse, which led her to confide in Walter (who confronted her stepfather), she killed him for good this time instead of just wounding him. That's not necessarily a good thing in itself, given how young she was, but it means that she's not confronted with the birthday cards her stepfather taunts her with every year in the blue universe. And she did run away, which young Peter convinced her not to do.
I guess it kind of goes to show how events can have mixed results -- that her meeting Peter as a child didn't necessarily result in the best of all possible worlds...
because 1)he noticed a difference, he liked it and he was stupid enough to tell that to Olivia.
That was one of the cruelest things I can remember seeing one person do to another. I still don't know how the fuck he could have thought this was the right thing for him to say. And then, you're right, his attitude was kind of like "I said I'm sorry, get over it already" which was extremely arrogant and selfish of him.
The disdain for sci-fi will never cease to annoy me.
Makes me wonder who the hell Chris Carter slept with to get The X-Files the attention it did. I can't think of another sci-fi show before or since that's gotten the attention it did. And, in my opinion, Fringe is every bit as good than TXF was although I think I would put Walter and Olivia's relationship as the most intriguing one to come out of the show instead of the shipper relationship.
I'm a fickle beast as I don't want this version of the alt-universes to go away either. I want my cake and to eat it too.
Me too! For example, I was extremely happy to see that AltBroyles was alive, but bummed that his history with Olivia has been erased. She saved his son and he rescued her! Their conversation when she was about to be cut to pieces, when he said: "Is there anything I can do to make you comfortable?" and she answered: "That's not why you came. You came here to make yourself comfortable." was one of my favourite moments of last season and I don't want all that to be lost.
And yes, her meeting with Peter as kids was a lovely moment of connection (I loved that episode), and it was important because she saw that she could talk about her abuse and ask for help, which was the right thing to do. And normally, I'd say that it's not a good thing for a child to have her stepfather's death on her conscience, but given the way he's tormented her every year on her birthday, I'm glad she fired that third bullet in this universe.
That was one of the cruelest things I can remember seeing one person do to another. I still don't know how the fuck he could have thought this was the right thing for him to say.
I can't get over it. The thing is, up until he said that, I could have excused him. After all, he hadn't dated her before, only knew her as a friend and colleague and had never seen her with a boyfriend, so for all he knew, this was how she was when she was in love (and that's more or less the case, from what we saw of her with John Scott in the pilot). If he'd said that, I would have thought: "All right, fair enough." But given the idiocy and callousness of what he said, I would have been fine if this had closed the door on a possible relationship between them.
Still, I don't even mind their relationship much when it's in the background. I just don't like it when it's presented as this driving force that justifies her every action. Like you, I watch for the plot and for the other relationships, and I agree that the relationship between Walter and Olivia is the most fascinating on the show. Seeing Olvia and Walter negociate their past and their current relationship is one of my favourite things ever, which is why I loved this episode, in a universe where she's had years to deal with what he's done to her. When she bandaged his hands and they went for a root beer float, and he told her that he knew he wasn't family....Every scene they have together is a hundred times more intense that anything else on the show. (The scenes between Walter and Peter can be very emotional too and I love them, but all the emotion comes from John Noble, so it's not the same). I also like seeing Olivia with Broyles (and I wouldn't mind seeing more of him), I like Peter and Walter together, I'd love to see more of Astrid and I want Olivia and her to be friends. And now, I'm fascinated by the idea that in this universe, Nina raised Olivia in her teens. No wonder this Olivia seems more confident.
And I'd really, really like to see the links between the Cortexiphan kids explored more in depth. I noticed that in this episode, once Cameron realised who she was, one of the first things he said was: "Olive. Man, look at you. Are you okay?" -- they have a shared past and here, she apparently remembers it. I was annoyed when the Cortexiphan kids we met in the previous seasons (I wanted to see more of Nick Lane interacting with Olivia) were all killed when they went to rescue Peter in the red universe, so if they're alive now, I hope we'll see them again.
So yes, basically, like you said, there's such a richness of relationships and possible interactions between other characters, I don't want them to fall by the wayside like in the second half of season 3, when even Olivia's sister and niece disappeared.
I didn't really watch these four episodes thinking that there was a Peter-shaped hole in their lives (with the important exception of Walter), but that his absence gave them space to be something else and to develop links and relationships that didn't grow when he was around.
Agreed. However, for Walter's sake, he really, really, really needed to be back. Interesting, though, how his absence hasn't really meant anything negative for Olivia that I've been able to observe. This is going to be hard on Peter (assuming the writers let it go on), which is fine with me, as I'm still holding a bit of a grudge about Fauxlivia last year. I am very sad for him though as I don't think he ever imagined that doing what he did would result in him having never existed (which is somehow sadder than just dying).
In the first and second seasons, Peter felt very superfluous to me, except as a companion for Walter. I guess I wasn't wrong to feel that way.
And, totally off-subject, but it's absolutely criminal that John Noble doesn't get more attention for the work he does on Fringe. What a bunch of morons nominations folks are.
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I definitely know what you mean, but I'm certain that it won't last. They're at the very least going to regain their memories of Peter sooner or later (or even get a complete reset, which I don't really want) so I'm not too worried about it.
I agree about Walter, he needs Peter. His biggest decicions (and mistakes) have revolved around Peter, he's his son, and his life is broken without him. That's not the case for Olivia, but then again, despite the season 3 retcon that they met as kids, he hasn't been a part of her life for a long time and he wasn't really an influence that shaped her. They can tell me that Olivia's life was incomplete without him all they want, but I remember that when the show started, Olivia was in love with a guy (and she was smiling and happy with him), she had a partner and a friend in Charlie, and she had a sister and a niece she was close to. There was only place for Peter because John died, then Charlie died (which is when Peter became more important in her life); and once she came back from the red universe, her sister and her niece, who had such a big place in her life before, practically disappeared and she became all about Peter, Peter, Peter. But even before meeting him, she was someone who was able to form and to maintain relationships, she wasn't exactly such a sad loner; or if she was, it was in large part because her boyfriend and her friend had died recently. So it would make sense that she simply developed other relationships. I know it goes against the idea that they're an epic interdimensional love story, but that's what I'm seeing on the show.
If anything, because she didn't meet Peter as a kid and didn't talk to him about her abuse, which led her to confide in Walter (who confronted her stepfather), she killed him for good this time instead of just wounding him. That's not necessarily a good thing in itself, given how young she was, but it means that she's not confronted with the birthday cards her stepfather taunts her with every year in the blue universe. And she did run away, which young Peter convinced her not to do. At some point, according to the writers, Nina became her (and Rachel's) guardian, which means that she still has a maternal figure in her life. I actually like the life this Olivia has in this universe, I also like that she's closer to Astrid (plus the fact that alt!Broyles is alive, just like all the other cortexiphan, presumably), which I why I don't want a reset.
I still hold a grudge about the Peter and Altlivia thing. Not just because he was deceived, but because 1)he noticed a difference, he liked it and he was stupid enough to tell that to Olivia. 2)Once he told her that, he didn't seem to understand why she didn't trust the depth of his feelings. When she hesitated in starting something with him, he gave her that awfully condescending speech about the fact that she was the only thing standing in the way of their relationship and that she should basically get over her hurt feelings. Everything about his attitude rubbed me the wrong way and he didn't seem to realise that he was the direct cause of Olivia's insecurity. So I don't mind this reversal. At least this time, it's the universe that erased him, which is not as hurtful to the ego as the fact that the people you love either didn't notice you were replaced or they noticed and thought: "Hey, I like this new Olivia!" But yes, I agree that it's sad for him.
I'm honestly glad to see him back, because I LOVE his relationship with Walter. I just don't want him to become front and center at Olivia's character expense like in the second half of last season. For some reason, I'd like it if the characters kept two sets of memories once they remember Peter. It would make things interesting.
The Emmys completely ignoring this show and John Noble in particular is becoming ridiculous. I remember that when the latest nominations were announced and the press made a list of what they'd missed, a dozen papers -- the NYT among them -- mentioned John Noble and Anna Torv. The disdain for sci-fi will never cease to annoy me.
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I'm a fickle beast as I don't want this version of the alt-universes to go away either. I want my cake and to eat it too. Of course, from the miniscule amount I understand about string theory that's possible :P
I know it goes against the idea that they're an epic interdimensional love story, but that's what I'm seeing on the show.
Heh. But they could be another Bangel :) Kidding. I don't see or want this as I don't see the entire show being about Peter and Olivia and don't want to see it be about it either. Instead, it's *very* plot-driven and very much about the *other* relationships. I'd like it to stay that way. The fact that the writers have been willing to let Peter be completely gone for several episodes (and that it's worked so well) gives me hope that they get this as well.
If anything, because she didn't meet Peter as a kid and didn't talk to him about her abuse, which led her to confide in Walter (who confronted her stepfather), she killed him for good this time instead of just wounding him. That's not necessarily a good thing in itself, given how young she was, but it means that she's not confronted with the birthday cards her stepfather taunts her with every year in the blue universe. And she did run away, which young Peter convinced her not to do.
I guess it kind of goes to show how events can have mixed results -- that her meeting Peter as a child didn't necessarily result in the best of all possible worlds...
because 1)he noticed a difference, he liked it and he was stupid enough to tell that to Olivia.
That was one of the cruelest things I can remember seeing one person do to another. I still don't know how the fuck he could have thought this was the right thing for him to say. And then, you're right, his attitude was kind of like "I said I'm sorry, get over it already" which was extremely arrogant and selfish of him.
The disdain for sci-fi will never cease to annoy me.
Makes me wonder who the hell Chris Carter slept with to get The X-Files the attention it did. I can't think of another sci-fi show before or since that's gotten the attention it did. And, in my opinion, Fringe is every bit as good than TXF was although I think I would put Walter and Olivia's relationship as the most intriguing one to come out of the show instead of the shipper relationship.
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Me too! For example, I was extremely happy to see that AltBroyles was alive, but bummed that his history with Olivia has been erased. She saved his son and he rescued her! Their conversation when she was about to be cut to pieces, when he said: "Is there anything I can do to make you comfortable?" and she answered: "That's not why you came. You came here to make yourself comfortable." was one of my favourite moments of last season and I don't want all that to be lost.
And yes, her meeting with Peter as kids was a lovely moment of connection (I loved that episode), and it was important because she saw that she could talk about her abuse and ask for help, which was the right thing to do. And normally, I'd say that it's not a good thing for a child to have her stepfather's death on her conscience, but given the way he's tormented her every year on her birthday, I'm glad she fired that third bullet in this universe.
That was one of the cruelest things I can remember seeing one person do to another. I still don't know how the fuck he could have thought this was the right thing for him to say.
I can't get over it. The thing is, up until he said that, I could have excused him. After all, he hadn't dated her before, only knew her as a friend and colleague and had never seen her with a boyfriend, so for all he knew, this was how she was when she was in love (and that's more or less the case, from what we saw of her with John Scott in the pilot). If he'd said that, I would have thought: "All right, fair enough." But given the idiocy and callousness of what he said, I would have been fine if this had closed the door on a possible relationship between them.
Still, I don't even mind their relationship much when it's in the background. I just don't like it when it's presented as this driving force that justifies her every action. Like you, I watch for the plot and for the other relationships, and I agree that the relationship between Walter and Olivia is the most fascinating on the show. Seeing Olvia and Walter negociate their past and their current relationship is one of my favourite things ever, which is why I loved this episode, in a universe where she's had years to deal with what he's done to her. When she bandaged his hands and they went for a root beer float, and he told her that he knew he wasn't family....Every scene they have together is a hundred times more intense that anything else on the show. (The scenes between Walter and Peter can be very emotional too and I love them, but all the emotion comes from John Noble, so it's not the same). I also like seeing Olivia with Broyles (and I wouldn't mind seeing more of him), I like Peter and Walter together, I'd love to see more of Astrid and I want Olivia and her to be friends. And now, I'm fascinated by the idea that in this universe, Nina raised Olivia in her teens. No wonder this Olivia seems more confident.
And I'd really, really like to see the links between the Cortexiphan kids explored more in depth. I noticed that in this episode, once Cameron realised who she was, one of the first things he said was: "Olive. Man, look at you. Are you okay?" -- they have a shared past and here, she apparently remembers it. I was annoyed when the Cortexiphan kids we met in the previous seasons (I wanted to see more of Nick Lane interacting with Olivia) were all killed when they went to rescue Peter in the red universe, so if they're alive now, I hope we'll see them again.
So yes, basically, like you said, there's such a richness of relationships and possible interactions between other characters, I don't want them to fall by the wayside like in the second half of season 3, when even Olivia's sister and niece disappeared.
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