Worst Mother's Day Evar.
So Mother's Day started out well. My hair was behaving well, and it was cold enough that I could wear a blazer my mom got me last week. stickybear whined a bit about having to wear nice clothes, but when we explained it was to honor MeMa (his maternal grandmother) he acquiesced. We got him packed off with his mom, and then got everything together and ready
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As for the recall--ugh. That has been hands down the hardest thing to teach her. She is normally very attentive towards us and does what we ask, but when she gets focused on something, all bets are off. I don't even know if our calls registered to her yesterday. BUT--this is primarily our fault. I do recognize the importance of the recall, and we should have worked with her on it harder. Do you have any particular tips on teaching it? Maybe a different method will work better with her.
Positive reinforcement: again, we've used this for other things but hadn't thought of using it for this. D'oh. I'll make some more training treats tonight.
Is "Fight" the Donaldson book you were talking about?
Can you clarify your last statement please? I want to be sure I understand what you're saying. Is it that we reward, reward, reward--but as soon as she starts acting up we turn right around and go away, without discipline but also without any more rewards?
If trying to discipline her out of this behavior is going to mean overriding instinct, why would we get a shock collar? Is this in case she does take off and we can't stop her, to break up a potential fight? I am not dismissing this--I really am willing to take any steps necessary to get her through this. I just want to make sure I fully understand it. :)
I can't say this enough--thank you for responding. :)
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And I want to emphasize that my viewpoint is only if she is reacting based on instinct and not fear. You'll probably need a trainer in person to be able to tell you the difference. Luna fights out of fear - a livestock guardian dog often fights out of instinct. Many pits fight out of dominance. The first thing a behaviorist will do with you is try to figure out why your pup is fighting - it helps target the training to the root cause.
The shock collar isn't for the aggression (and I can't think of anyone I know personally who would use it for such since it will either work or completely backfire and ramp up the aggression) - the shock collar is for teaching the come command. Sometimes dogs get so excited they quit hearing us - a low jolt from the collar (feels like when you slide your feet on the carpet then touch a doorknob, if that strong) cuts through that and makes them go "hey - what was that?" Then they can hear us again. If you associate your voice with that jolt enough (and this is why a trainer teaches you how to do it) then eventually your voice cuts through just like the collar and you have a perfect recall command. If I could use one on Luna I would in a heartbeat and it's still on the table if everything else fails.
Can you clarify your last statement please? I want to be sure I understand what you're saying. Is it that we reward, reward, reward--but as soon as she starts acting up we turn right around and go away, without discipline but also without any more rewards?
Yup. This has several benefits. If it is fear based it will teach her that once she's scared you'll remove the scary thing, which in turn helps her be less afraid. It's also a very clear signal to the dog of what you want without any negative attached. Some dogs overemphasize the negatives and miss the positive parts. Dad's had beagles that if you yelled at them they forgot everything taught in the training session. He's also had others that you literally had to swat with the cap to make any impression at all. Without meeting your dog I don't know where she falls, so I'm just throwing stuff out there. Finally it helps stop any battle of wills. I don't think this is an issue with your pup from your postings, but if it is a "no I wanna do this, not what you want" it avoids the whole thing.
As for recall. You can try the treat method - you probably already have. This is great unless your dog values the action more than food. (I have a hound like that.) Next up is long leash method - 50 ft leash, throw distractions at them and ask for recall, then reinforce by bringing them in. Lots of people swear by this but I've never personally seen it work - all the dogs I've seen have been smart enough to know the difference between being on and off leash.
You can teach recall by running away from the animal. Sometimes chasing you is more fun than whatever is happening. The theme through all of these is what motivates your dog - you have to find the best thing ever and use it as a reward for coming. Unfortunately with hounds the best thing ever is chasing the rabbit. For your dog the best thing ever might be defending territory via dog fight. :(
Finally there is the shock collar. I explained it earlier. You can mimic shock collar training with a loud noise that again means the best thing ever will happen (and shock collar dogs are still rewarded when they come) - my personal experience is that a hound that doesn't hear me call won't hear the can of pennies either and that nothing short of a shotgun gets through the instinct. (And sometimes not even that.)
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Hey - I also said something similar in a message I sent to your JL email...don't know if you got it or usual read LJ mail or not.
BUt Boundfate had *very* valid points - if she thinks it's her job to defend or guard. Then it's not aggression - but job confusion.... she needs to learn a different way to do her job or learn a different job altogether. Pack hierarchy is very simple - but complex to figure out - since you don't speak dog and she doesn't speak people.
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Our best guess as to her background is that she's an Australian cattle dog/shepherd mix of some sort. Here are three pictures; we take loads but forget to upload them to the computer. (Uh, in the deck picture she looks funny because she's trying to figure out a nest of chicks in the eaves of our house.) I'm going to try to have my husband put up more tonight. She's about 35-40 lbs, so medium sized. You'll also note her tail is docked. She was picked up as a stray so we have no idea what her background is like. I'm positive she's got a lot of herding dog in her. Her favorite game is to herd invisible animals, and she has a very specific whine which means there are deer in the backyard. The latter could be prey instinct, but I tend to think it's more of a herding instinct. It's different from how she'll flush neighborhood cats out of the brush, for example.
Anyway. My husband doesn't agree with me (he doesn't disagree either--he hasn't formed an opinion), but I'm not entirely sure she's scared of these other dogs. It sometimes seems to me more like she's protecting us or territory. She certainly never shakes, as she does during thunderstorms, and she doesn't flinch and cower like she used to when someone raised a hand near her or there was a sudden loud noise. (She still does when someone raises a bat, as I recently found out.) Furthermore, she has erect and extremely expressive ears. They are almost always folded back against her head when she's scared, but they're always pricked up and turned fully forward when she's around another dog. (The exception is probably the labradoodle who she is submissive to--I believe her ears fold back a bit with him when she stands by his head and licks her lips. But they prick right up as soon as he starts barking or playing.)
But, I'm by no means a behaviorist. We're looking into finding someone in our area who is, thanks to your and driia's recommendations.
Thank you for your information about the shock collar. I'll definitely consider it, with the help of a trainer, if everything else fails. I'm fairly sure she was abused at some point so I prefer to stay away from such things, as you seem to with Luna, but if that's what we have to do, then that's what we have to do. She is usually very responsive to verbal commands and discipline, *except* when she's really worked up. I have definitely felt she doesn't ever register our voices at these times. Certainly I can't imagine she did yesterday.
We're going to go ahead and start doing the positive reinforcement method, along with double teaming her on walks whenever possible so one of us is available to make friends with the other dog. I'll also start up again on front, taking these new ideas into account. Thank you! Oh, I've also already ordered that book. :) Hopefully it will give me some more insight into her.
Again, thank you so, so much. :) I really value your opinion on dogs. :)
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