Hey, who's up for a little biting social commentary?
I know that social movements are interpretive- conservative, liberal, and so on generally mean different things to different people. I'll admit it's hard to talk about any given movement without generalizing because there ARE so many variables and points of middle ground.
However, for the sake of this meta, lets assume that I'm talking about ( Read more... )
However, for the sake of this meta, lets assume that I'm talking about ( Read more... )
Yeah, feminists aren't just picking on religion because we cut up a list of things to attack, threw them in a hat, and randomly drew religion.
I don't think that's what people are saying. But I know from experience that I feel like I have to tread carefully even among my own friends here on this online community because I feel like some of my beliefs that also happen to be shared by my religion will be attacked/hinted at as being anti-feminist. The insistence by some feminists that certain issues (like abortion) are about women's rights alienates those of us who feel that they're not about women's rights but about human rights. It makes us feel like we cannot use that term, feminist, to describe ourselves because even though we are of course supporters of women's rights and women's equality, the movement espouses certain ideas that we don't think are about women's equality.
And I wouldn't put people like me in Palin's group, either, though. Even though I can empathize with Christians who feel uncomfortable with some of the ideas associated with feminism and consequently alienated in some way by the movement, I think that the stuff about submitting to men is completely contrary to feminism and something I would never believe in. However, religious doctrine is a tricky, tricky thing, and many modern religious people deal with how to reconcile their faiths with the modern world. The Catholic church, for example -- a largely immutable organization -- had the Council of Trent to try to deal with the Reformation's ideas, conceding to some and rejecting others (for example, enforcing priest education but not allowing priests to get married)-- and just a few decades ago it had Vatican II, which also tried to deal with modernizing the church. These things change very slowly -- there is a span of centuries in between those two -- and grappling with religion is a very difficult and personal thing. It is easy for an atheist to point to a Catholic and say "change your religion, dammit, it's silly and outmoded and evil!" But to someone who has grown up with their religion as part of their family and culture -- even with someone like me who wasn't raised by card-carrying, Bible-beating parents -- it is a very personal and difficult thing to reconcile things the Bible says with our own personal beliefs, and it is made even harder by the fact that the Catholic church is supposed to be fundamentally infallible. (Of course, the Palin supporters in the article are far from Catholic-- they are evangelical Christians.)
The point that I am trying to make is that these religious associations with things like feminism change very, very slowly. My perception of the women in this article was that while they had some things definitely wrong about feminism, at least they were starting to accept new ideas about the roles of women. There were parts in the article where they described the struggle of these women to make the same reconciliation I described above-- to me this is at least a step in the right direction away from the "women stay at home and do everything their husband says" idea. I don't like their current positions much because many are contradictory, but you have to appreciate the difficulty of the position many Christian women find themselves in.
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I obviously don't know your religious background or what your religion is or anything like that. However, I felt like last time we were in a conversation kind of like this your ideas about Christians didn't quite match what many Christians actually are like, or at least why they believe the things they do. Maybe I'm wrong and you did understand it, but it didn't seem like that to me, and I still think about how frustrating that is to me because a lot of people (whether you're in this category or not) just seem to have misconceptions about why Christians believe certain things. That's why I'm glad (albeit very nervous about your response) that I got a chance to explain things hopefully in a clearer way.
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And I think that the argument can be made for abortion being a human rights issue, and I think that is a conversation that feminists should be able to have amongst each other without resorting to name calling. I think that as long as you don't think women are inherently second-class citizens and should be equal under society and the law, then I think you're a feminist.
While I acknowledge and appreciate the fact that these women have been empowered by this movement, I do like seeing women empowered, but the idea that feminism is in any way about thriving as a woman under male authority...watering it down to the point where it is no longer feminism. I appreciate the fact that they are trying to be more proactive, but it seems akin to the idea that a nun, no matter her rank, is submissive to any priest (I'm not sure on that one anymore. It's something I've heard in the past that, at very least, seems to be an applicable analogy).
You're right, religious change is slow and I can't imagine it's an easy thing for people, but I will admit the Catholic church has made great progress. Jean Paul II won my respect when he acknowledged the Catholic Church's position on evolution as scientific fact. Honestly, if it wasn't for abortion after rape/when the woman's life is in danger and gay marriage, me and the Catholic Church would be on pretty good terms.
My position on religion and Christianity is...messy. A lot of it is influenced by my opinion of the arguments presented by the GOP, my peers, and my dad's family. There are a few exceptions (yourself and several others on my flist included), but for the most part, people don't seem to think about their religion. Most of the people I know are very shallow about their Christianity- as in, they sometimes find a way to go to Church between texting and they'll defend it, but they don't really seem to understand why they identify as such. The other kind I tend to see are those that "believe in the inerrant truth of the Bible". No evolution. Gay people are going to Hell. Etc. I understand that people can believe whatever they want...but when they start being really gung-ho about how everyone should follow their belief, it begins to grate against me. I will always disagree with Legislation that relies entirely on any one religion. I feel a secular government is the only fair government and...I'll admit that anybody who seeks to control others scares me.
So yeah, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. While I understand that there ARE a wide variety of Christians, the ones that bother me are the ones that seek laws based on their religion. IMHO, it's not so much that I have misconceptions (religion is such a deeply personal thing for those that really think about it that it seems hard to have 'misconceptions' as they'll believe different things for different reasons) as the ones that are most deeply concerning to me are extremists.
And I actually did feel kind of bad about the way I left things off last time. I was really upset, and I'm sorry that I wasn't as reasonable as I could be.
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Thank you for listening to my part of the discussion and responding like this. It makes me very relieved and happy. I hadn't been sure if the response had been taking so long because you were A. on vacation, B. contemplative, C. researching, or D. ranting to other people about how horrible this was and trying to come up with the best plan of attack. xD Haha I am very glad that it was choice B! xD
I think there is a big difference in the types of religious people you are exposed to and the types I am exposed to. To me it sounds like you are primarily exposed to evangelicals or at the very least other Protestants, or even conservative Catholics. (Plus many kids our age, who unfortunately can rarely be relied upon to think too hard on anything.) "Protestant" is a big word, of course, that encompasses many different groups that span across the political and religious spectra, but the further to the right you go the closer you get to evangelicals... These people would be considered our "extremists". And unfortunately they paint an erroneous picture of the entire Christian community. But to me it sounds like these are the people you find around you who may color your idea of Christianity. And they do represent a significant portion of Christians, but on the other hand there is a significant portion they're leaving out.
My family is Roman Catholic (mother raised Presbyterian but converted when she married my dad), and my parents both teach at a Catholic college. (It's not required that you be Catholic to teach there, although many faculty are, I believe.) It is a more liberal college to be sure. We had my dad's boss over for dinner a little while ago, a Catholic priest, and he was complaining to us about the conservative Catholic radio and how they're basically just as bad as the evangelicals. I was surprised to learn that there were Catholics like that because the Catholics I spend my time around are generally much more moderate, including professors of religion I know (those are my father's colleagues; he is the head of the Norbertine Center for Spirituality at the college library-- hence why his boss is a priest). They tend to have much more advanced and nuanced views of Christianity.
I was talking to another girl our age from this community awhile back, and she was under the impression that "crazy Christian" equals "Catholic" when in fact she was thinking of the evangelicals. (A la George W. Bush and Sarah Palin.) I asked my dad for specifics and he told me that actually, before Reagan (I think it was him) came along and changed the Republican party and what it stood for, Catholics were some of the stalwarts of the Democratic Party. It was when more moralistic issues were brought to the forefront of the partys' agendas that Catholics became split. That is why you have some conservative Catholics (like the radio group that so irritates the Norbertines at the college/my church), but then also people like my church. Back during the Obama election, when it was coming close to November, our priest gave one of his "second sermons" where after the sermon he comes down from the pulpit and talks to us. (He likes to do this... a lot. xD) He basically gave us a hardly veiled blessing that it is okay to vote for Obama even though you don't agree with him on abortion. (He talked about how he had been approached my members of the church who wanted his advice: They wanted to vote for "a certain candidate" but didn't agree with him on "a certain issue". It was pretty obvious. xD)
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This is why I was so frustrated last time about all of the assumptions that were being made about Catholics. Non-conservative Catholics are radically, radically different from evangelicals.
... I keep wanting to address all of the things in that last conversation but that's not what this is about... ^^; It took a lot of calming words from my father to convince me to just let things be on that one... Well, but in this conversation it seems that we are basically in agreement. I just wanted to defend a sentiment that you seemed you wanted to ridicule, that the feminist movement has in some ways alienated some Christian women so they're trying to find some way to reconcile all of these confusing views... It's bipartisanship at its worst, as usual.
Like I said, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm really glad, because last time I was left with a rather negative impression of the way you go about arguing, to be honest, but now I see that that was just one case and you CAN make thoughtful arguments like this one... and I'm led to believe that perhaps that was just an aberration to the norm...?
Anyway, thanks again for your reply. I'm very happy that it went this way.
P.S. I don't know about the nun thing-- I would ask my dad but it's early in the morning. xD
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"Honestly, if it wasn't for abortion after rape/when the woman's life is in danger and gay marriage, me and the Catholic Church would be on pretty good terms."
Like I said, have to agree there, although in light of recent events I have thought hard about being Catholic and even if these things never change I don't think I could ever stop being Catholic-- it's too much a part of me. (It's like political parties-- I'm not sure you could ever find one that totally agreed with everything you said.)
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And yes, I do agree that a lot of it goes back to the kind of people we're surrounded by ^^; Like I said, I know some VERY reasonable Christians and love them, but yes, most of the ones I know that care are fundamentalist.
However, just the other day I went to a graduation party for a friend; myself aside, everybody there was from her church, but they were also MEGA liberal and I had so much fun talking to them. They were interested in things like environmental health and conservation and I could see why she was so...driven. Everybody there seriously valued education and were proud of her accomplishment. Instead of being occasional, it's like...they were all in one place. I kind of imagine that's what it's like for you *guess*.
But stars, it must be nice to be surrounded by so many educated people @_@ I go to a public high school and my dad's family thinks people always knew the Earth was round, 'nuff said.
Actually, I've noticed a correlation between reasonable people, knowledge, and independent thought :D
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I go to public school too, though, and in a rather "red" part of the state, so I also deal with plenty of, erm... non-intellectually-developed people, to put it nicely. xD
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