Ethics Gradient

[pw201]

lisekit has a discussion on novels, religion and relativism in religion. She says that, where religion is concerned, she doesn't like to say that anyone's views are more or less valuable than anyone else's. This set me thinking about the idea of relativism in general (which lisekit isn't advocating, lest I accuse her of it, as she mentions respect and tolerance

Comments

[ex_robhu]

I believe we should be tolerant of other peoples beliefs in the sense of not trying to forcibly change them (perhaps unless those beliefs lead to actions which have a strong negative effect on others [although I'm not sure about this]).

Toleration does not prevent us from trying to debate / argue with / convert those people to our own particular beliefs and way of thinking however. If we believe we have the truth and someone else does not then (depending on the scale of consequence of them not being 'right' in our view) if we really care about them we should try to debate / argue with / convert them.

Of course there are two sides to this - I know of (Christian) people who try to convert people in part because they care about them and don't want them to burn in hell but also because their church / denomination / cu has put a lot of social pressure on them to 'be evangelistic'; this I think is a bit of a shame.

I'm still hopefully that there is a truth out there which can be discovered, something that we can be certain of.

[lisekit]

I believe we should be tolerant of other peoples beliefs in the sense of not trying to forcibly change them ....

Toleration does not prevent us from trying to
convert those people to our own particular beliefs

I don't quite understand the distinction between the two. (Alright, I understand that you think there is a difference in force, or level, but in a very basic way, I don't see a distinction.)

[ex_robhu]

Dictionary.com: Tolerate

1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure.

So we tolerate someones belief by not prohibiting them from having (/exercising) those beliefs.

Dictionary.com: Convert
"...To persuade or induce to adopt a particular religion, faith, or belief: convert pagans to Christianity; was converted to pacifism by the war."
Conversion/persuasion/etc is where we act to try to change those beliefs.

They have quite different meanings.

[lisekit]

Could it not be said, that an attempt to change or convert beliefs, is in itself an attempt to prohibit or oppose the existing belief? (You don't wanna believe like that....!)

[ex_robhu]

No. The meanings are quite different.

[lisekit]

[shrugs]
I don't think I agree that they are. If the latter case seeks to exclude a former belief, then it opposes it and, by extension, prohibits it.

[ex_robhu]

The latter seeks to change ones belief not to exclude it or oppose it. There is no prohibition in wishing to change someones beliefs. Prohibition is imposed on someone whereas conversion is chosen.

[ex_robhu]

It would be an awful shame if it were considered wrong to discuss / debate someones belief with them on the grounds that it was an intolerant thing to do. At the very least it would be deny someone the freedom of expression/speech, at the very worst one would be unable to warn someone about something bad that might be happening to them now or in the future (or conversely unable to tell them about something better they could have now or in the future).

[lisekit]

There's discussion, and there's prosletysing in any form. As I remarked on my own journal, I have no problem at all with discussing and even disagreeing, with respect; this does not, to my mind, amount to a conversion attempt. It may be that you have a broader definition of "conversion" than the one that is currently in my mind. The word, to me, connotes something quite one-sided, rather than the notion of a respectful discussion.

Just out of interest, who is being converted and to what belief here?

[ex_robhu]

Dictionary.com: Proselytize

1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.

Dictionary.com: Induce

1. To lead or move, as to a course of action, by influence or persuasion. See Synonyms at persuade.
2. To bring about or stimulate the occurrence of; cause: a drug used to induce labor.
3. To infer by inductive reasoning.