Re: I see...dead minds!purplefolkMarch 2 2006, 07:58:17 UTC
I purposely watched Fox for two whole weeks around election time to see "the other side." Painful. I don't read Al Jazeera regularly, but they don't appear to be too insane, so it's useful to get a different perspective. (Say hi to the NSA now...)
I'm interested b/c I'm interested in the world around me, basically. It's not too much more complicated than that. I see it as a citizen's duty to be aware of what's not going right, since we theoretically have a voice in deciding what happens next.
Ever read the Dune series, btw? You might like it.
I don't know. I was going to make the offhand comment that it might not be in the best interest of "those in power" for the public to remain superficially involved at best. However, it's possible they also don't care what the public does-- we might not have as much influence as we'd like. (How much sway do we have over corporations and lobbyists, for example? How much does an individual vote really matter?) It's also possible they care, but not nearly enough to do anything, or have other priorities.
Assuming not all politicians started off (or even necessarily end up as) corrupt dirtbags, you'd think they'd originally want to help people and improve the world, etc etc. I can see how the line of thinking would go such that, "Ok, I'll sacrifice my ethics briefly to gain more power... which I need in order to actually accomplish anything useful." Perhaps too many of them are simply too caught up in the game of staying in power to do much meaningful things with it.
Re: I see...dead minds!mystictravelerMarch 2 2006, 18:02:14 UTC
A couple of weeks ago, there was a seminar in my school about voting machines. It was a very interesting talk, though the conclusions were a bit too gloomy. For instance, the speaker (who's a professor of computer science and has a degree in humanities, too) mentioned that the "exit polls" gave perfectly matching results, except in 6 states - where electronic voting machines were implemented (inc. FL of course). In those states, the exit polls gave opposite results!
As for Al Jazeera, I think you're missing a lot of the fun. Their news aren't as entertaining as their talk shows ;) And don't worry about the NSA, they're now friends of mine ;P (You can imagine what I had to go through to issue my visa!!)
I'm not into "serious" sci-fi novels; I prefer lighter ones. The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy (part4) was the last sci-fi novel I read and it was like .. hmm.. 5 years ago! Ever since I only read fiction stories. So, do you I think I should give Dune a try? Shall I start from the very first part?
I don't know about the situation here in the States, so I don't want to speculate. But it seems like the global trend for those who are in power is to look for one's own benefit first, then -if that person is good- to look for others/their country's benefit.
Your point of view is certainly valid, if one would assume -as you said- they're starting clean. BUT.. didn't they notice that others, who also started with good intentions, ended up being corrupt? Wouldn't they learn the lesson and still think they can get through without being stained with corruption? In the Egyptian folklore there's a myth about "the Caller," who is a beautiful young lady that appears to the farmers near the river and invites them to follow her. The farmers who follow her disappear and never return back. They myth says that this caller is actually a ghoul in disguise and predates on those farmers enchanted by the beauty of the fake caller.
Re: I see...dead minds!purplefolkMarch 2 2006, 22:12:25 UTC
Don't get me started on those voting machine things. Every time I read another article talking about all the security holes and technical glitches, it's honestly frightening. Like, where did democracy go?
I really do think you'd like Dune-- it's not just sci-fi, but also politics. The first book is really the best, so try that and if you like it, read the rest. (Do yourself a favor and don't bother with any of the prequels.)
I don't really know the situation either. But as far as speculations go, I'm willing to agree that yours is most likely the case globally, including the US.
If you notice everyone else being corrupt, couldn't you think, "But I'M different. I will change everything!" As a starting point, it could be even be more motivation. Or perhaps the system is too muddled and full of inertia to accomplish much as one person... and you may need several good people, who furthermore agree with each other on how to fix things, to do anything. So maybe they end up being disillusioned as well?
Re: I see...dead votes!mystictravelerMarch 3 2006, 02:03:14 UTC
Voting machines.. voting machines.. voting machines.. voting machines.. voting machines.. Talk! I want to listen to what you've got say about this ;)
I didn't quite get what you meant by "security holes and technical glitches," but I was referring to intentional manipulation. Basically some state people, who are responsible for choosing the voting machines, were either employees at the company, or they were offered a position at the company when they retire from their state job. There were even more horrifying stories about similar situations in the army.
Moving to dune, do you know where I can get a cheap second-hand copy? So far I used to buy books online, but I realized that one can get them much cheaper from a bookstore. I just don't know any good bookstores around here.
If you notice everyone else being corrupt, couldn't you think, "But I'M different. I will change everything!" I think you're being too optimistic/idealistic about this. Let's see.. if you have a bunch of corrupt people controlling the scene, then some good guy shows up and announces that he's going to do a reformation, will the rest welcome him in? Would they even let him get inside? Or would they manipulate the voting machines? ;)
I would really love to believe that there are still some people who have the authority and power and are not corrupt...
Re: I see...dead votes!purplefolkMarch 3 2006, 03:54:56 UTC
Ah, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek. Security holes = suspiciously intentional(?) backdoors. Technical glitches = votes registered before voting actually began, mysterious Kerry --> Bush conversions, etc. I really want to believe the last presidential election was fair and not sound like a conspiracy nut, but... the fact that I can't dismiss tampering as being ludicrious is enough to make me quite er, discontent with the situation. You'd think the public would need to be massively appeased with an issue like this. (And forget 2000-- I still think Gore won, and the Supreme Court basically decided for us.)
If you're near NYC, go to the Strand (or try buying used from Amazon?). But even nonused, a paperback version should only be $7 or $8. If you have any geek friends, it's pretty much a staple, so you might have luck borrowing as well.
Oh, I don't even think most people start off being idealistic. It's just, I can almost picture how an idealist would end up in such a group. They might very well let him inside if they know one idealist can't won't do much. (I, on the other hand, am very much an idealist, despite all my cynicism, lol.)
I would love to believe it too. The best I can do is think that if such people exist, they're in the minority. :\
Re: I see...dead votes!mystictravelerMarch 3 2006, 04:43:19 UTC
An interesting question would be "would it be justified if some hackers got into those machines and made sure they're not tampered with?" I know the question sounds contradictory (hacking in to make sure they're foolproof - heh).
I also don't know why are the people reluctant to the conspiracy theory! Even back home in my country, those who call themselves "the intellectuals," severely attack anyone who talks about conspiracy. Personally, I'm neither pro nor con, but I like to keep all options available; and somehow this attack on the pro-conspiracy seems to be of great benefit to those who are involved in the conspiracy business - in case it exists.
This blackboxvoting is interesting indeed. ... scary, too!
I do live near NYC (God bless the PATH train.. oops, errrr.. physical laws bless the PATH train? :P), so where's the Strand? Unfortunately I (still) don't have geek friends :/
Those who do wrong, are always afraid of the right (regardless that right and wrong are relative). So, letting even a single righteous person inside might be risky to their dirty business.
Why are you an idealist? It's not good for your health :P You'll be disappointed a lot and you'll look like someone who's trying to model the black body radiation using the classical physics - beyond the ultra-violet range ;)
Re: I see...dead votes!purplefolkMarch 3 2006, 05:24:37 UTC
Oh, you mean like white hats? ;) I think the Daily Show did a spoof on that.
Hehe, in Russian culture, you're a freak if you don't talk about conspiracy (and this isn't restricted to gvt). Probably b/c people are afraid of sounding irrational and paranoid. I personally prefer to restrict myself to statements like "It's possible that the votes were tampered with" rather than "omg! They were tampered with!" I know that sounds like a weak statement, but logically speaking, even admitting something is possible is pretty significant. Because, honestly, it should not be possible that these things can happen, regardless of if they did. In other words, I'm in favor of letting people audit the code and results.
The Strand is on Broadway and 12th, I think. http://www.strandbooks.com/home/ so you could PATH to 14th or 9th and it's a 10-15 min walk if you're not lazy. (PATH to 14th and take L over to Union Sq if you are lazy, and it's under 5 min walk from there)
I'm an idealist b/c I still think the world, while messed up in many different ways, is still redeemable (somehow). I certainly don't have all the answers (I don't even feel I have a couple of them), but I still believe it's possible to make a positive impact-- and no matter how small that impact is, it's not insignificant. That, and I suspect I may be very naive, no matter how cynical I think I am.
I skimmed through. I've heard similar stuff before, like a professor saying consciousness is merely Brownian motion of Calcium ions through neuro membrane channels. Intuitively, I like the idea of emergent behavior, although I doubt we'll come close to proving that one way or another. The thing is, although science almost inevitably accrues more knowledge, is it possible bridge the subjective/objective gap? If not, it may leave room for metaphysical things like (the subjective perception of) free will.
Re: I see...dead votes!mystictravelerMarch 3 2006, 06:18:20 UTC
What is the Daily Show? (Excuse my ignorance)
True, I do understand what you mean by sticking to those less-dramatic statements and that "those" things shouldn't possibly happen. I'd rather adapt the entropy point of view. If it happens, then nature allows it to happen. The steady-state solution to the elliptic partial differential equation (with Dirichlet or Neumann boundary conditions) is either zero or a constant - heat death!
Thanks for the info. I think I passed by that bookstore once.. do they have like, several stands for used books outside the shop? And I don't think I'm lazy.. on my second weekend here, I took the PATH to WTC then walked all the way up to Columbia University :) It was still summer, so walking for long times was no problem. Now, even with my heavy coat on, I can't walk for more than 45mins :/
Well, maybe your view to the world is better than mine. I think I know the way.. I think I know the answer in the steady-state.. I know I might be wrong, but till somebody proves me wrong, I have no reason to change my view.
Though this "positive impact" thing still makes me feel itchy. One part of me believes that indeed any good change, no matter how small, isn't insignificant, but another part believes that good or evil, it's all the same.. this is life and doesn't allow for extremes (ideal situations, like domination of good over evil or vice versa)
Do you have other resources on the subject of consciousness? It's one of those questions that can keep me literally awake for several nights. In my opinion, I think we need to solve the conscious "I" problem first before trying to tackle the free-will problem. Maybe, just a maybe, if we can know what that "I" really is, we can find the mapping function from subjective to objective. Although still what we call objective cannot be proven to be indeed objective (Goedl's argument about the incompleteness of mathematics)
Re: I see...dead votes!mystictravelerMarch 3 2006, 07:04:24 UTC
Seems like I will submit to the pressures and buy a TV set! :P
Hmm.. 80F is where I start to bloom ;) But what's there to be seen in the cold? It gets dark by 17:00 and that's it. Where do you usually go exploring when you go to the city? I've tried some Brooklyn, too.. but there's almost nothing but groceries and delis there! :P
Sheesh, this guy has some interesting stuff, although my first impression about him personally isn't very positive. Do you have the password to his slides?
Yes, I read (most of) it. Too "american" for my taste I'd say. It reminded me of "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance." What do you think of it, GEB, I mean?
I'm interested b/c I'm interested in the world around me, basically. It's not too much more complicated than that. I see it as a citizen's duty to be aware of what's not going right, since we theoretically have a voice in deciding what happens next.
Ever read the Dune series, btw? You might like it.
I don't know. I was going to make the offhand comment that it might not be in the best interest of "those in power" for the public to remain superficially involved at best. However, it's possible they also don't care what the public does-- we might not have as much influence as we'd like. (How much sway do we have over corporations and lobbyists, for example? How much does an individual vote really matter?) It's also possible they care, but not nearly enough to do anything, or have other priorities.
Assuming not all politicians started off (or even necessarily end up as) corrupt dirtbags, you'd think they'd originally want to help people and improve the world, etc etc. I can see how the line of thinking would go such that, "Ok, I'll sacrifice my ethics briefly to gain more power... which I need in order to actually accomplish anything useful." Perhaps too many of them are simply too caught up in the game of staying in power to do much meaningful things with it.
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As for Al Jazeera, I think you're missing a lot of the fun. Their news aren't as entertaining as their talk shows ;) And don't worry about the NSA, they're now friends of mine ;P (You can imagine what I had to go through to issue my visa!!)
I'm not into "serious" sci-fi novels; I prefer lighter ones. The hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy (part4) was the last sci-fi novel I read and it was like .. hmm.. 5 years ago! Ever since I only read fiction stories. So, do you I think I should give Dune a try? Shall I start from the very first part?
I don't know about the situation here in the States, so I don't want to speculate. But it seems like the global trend for those who are in power is to look for one's own benefit first, then -if that person is good- to look for others/their country's benefit.
Your point of view is certainly valid, if one would assume -as you said- they're starting clean. BUT.. didn't they notice that others, who also started with good intentions, ended up being corrupt? Wouldn't they learn the lesson and still think they can get through without being stained with corruption? In the Egyptian folklore there's a myth about "the Caller," who is a beautiful young lady that appears to the farmers near the river and invites them to follow her. The farmers who follow her disappear and never return back. They myth says that this caller is actually a ghoul in disguise and predates on those farmers enchanted by the beauty of the fake caller.
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I really do think you'd like Dune-- it's not just sci-fi, but also politics. The first book is really the best, so try that and if you like it, read the rest. (Do yourself a favor and don't bother with any of the prequels.)
I don't really know the situation either. But as far as speculations go, I'm willing to agree that yours is most likely the case globally, including the US.
If you notice everyone else being corrupt, couldn't you think, "But I'M different. I will change everything!" As a starting point, it could be even be more motivation. Or perhaps the system is too muddled and full of inertia to accomplish much as one person... and you may need several good people, who furthermore agree with each other on how to fix things, to do anything. So maybe they end up being disillusioned as well?
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I didn't quite get what you meant by "security holes and technical glitches," but I was referring to intentional manipulation. Basically some state people, who are responsible for choosing the voting machines, were either employees at the company, or they were offered a position at the company when they retire from their state job. There were even more horrifying stories about similar situations in the army.
Moving to dune, do you know where I can get a cheap second-hand copy? So far I used to buy books online, but I realized that one can get them much cheaper from a bookstore. I just don't know any good bookstores around here.
If you notice everyone else being corrupt, couldn't you think, "But I'M different. I will change everything!"
I think you're being too optimistic/idealistic about this. Let's see.. if you have a bunch of corrupt people controlling the scene, then some good guy shows up and announces that he's going to do a reformation, will the rest welcome him in? Would they even let him get inside? Or would they manipulate the voting machines? ;)
I would really love to believe that there are still some people who have the authority and power and are not corrupt...
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http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
If you're near NYC, go to the Strand (or try buying used from Amazon?). But even nonused, a paperback version should only be $7 or $8. If you have any geek friends, it's pretty much a staple, so you might have luck borrowing as well.
Oh, I don't even think most people start off being idealistic. It's just, I can almost picture how an idealist would end up in such a group. They might very well let him inside if they know one idealist can't won't do much. (I, on the other hand, am very much an idealist, despite all my cynicism, lol.)
I would love to believe it too. The best I can do is think that if such people exist, they're in the minority. :\
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I also don't know why are the people reluctant to the conspiracy theory! Even back home in my country, those who call themselves "the intellectuals," severely attack anyone who talks about conspiracy. Personally, I'm neither pro nor con, but I like to keep all options available; and somehow this attack on the pro-conspiracy seems to be of great benefit to those who are involved in the conspiracy business - in case it exists.
This blackboxvoting is interesting indeed.
... scary, too!
I do live near NYC (God bless the PATH train.. oops, errrr.. physical laws bless the PATH train? :P), so where's the Strand? Unfortunately I (still) don't have geek friends :/
Those who do wrong, are always afraid of the right (regardless that right and wrong are relative). So, letting even a single righteous person inside might be risky to their dirty business.
Why are you an idealist? It's not good for your health :P You'll be disappointed a lot and you'll look like someone who's trying to model the black body radiation using the classical physics - beyond the ultra-violet range ;)
Did you read the free will article yet?
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Hehe, in Russian culture, you're a freak if you don't talk about conspiracy (and this isn't restricted to gvt). Probably b/c people are afraid of sounding irrational and paranoid. I personally prefer to restrict myself to statements like "It's possible that the votes were tampered with" rather than "omg! They were tampered with!" I know that sounds like a weak statement, but logically speaking, even admitting something is possible is pretty significant. Because, honestly, it should not be possible that these things can happen, regardless of if they did. In other words, I'm in favor of letting people audit the code and results.
The Strand is on Broadway and 12th, I think. http://www.strandbooks.com/home/ so you could PATH to 14th or 9th and it's a 10-15 min walk if you're not lazy. (PATH to 14th and take L over to Union Sq if you are lazy, and it's under 5 min walk from there)
I'm an idealist b/c I still think the world, while messed up in many different ways, is still redeemable (somehow). I certainly don't have all the answers (I don't even feel I have a couple of them), but I still believe it's possible to make a positive impact-- and no matter how small that impact is, it's not insignificant. That, and I suspect I may be very naive, no matter how cynical I think I am.
I skimmed through. I've heard similar stuff before, like a professor saying consciousness is merely Brownian motion of Calcium ions through neuro membrane channels. Intuitively, I like the idea of emergent behavior, although I doubt we'll come close to proving that one way or another. The thing is, although science almost inevitably accrues more knowledge, is it possible bridge the subjective/objective gap? If not, it may leave room for metaphysical things like (the subjective perception of) free will.
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True, I do understand what you mean by sticking to those less-dramatic statements and that "those" things shouldn't possibly happen. I'd rather adapt the entropy point of view. If it happens, then nature allows it to happen. The steady-state solution to the elliptic partial differential equation (with Dirichlet or Neumann boundary conditions) is either zero or a constant - heat death!
Thanks for the info. I think I passed by that bookstore once.. do they have like, several stands for used books outside the shop? And I don't think I'm lazy.. on my second weekend here, I took the PATH to WTC then walked all the way up to Columbia University :) It was still summer, so walking for long times was no problem. Now, even with my heavy coat on, I can't walk for more than 45mins :/
Well, maybe your view to the world is better than mine. I think I know the way.. I think I know the answer in the steady-state.. I know I might be wrong, but till somebody proves me wrong, I have no reason to change my view.
Though this "positive impact" thing still makes me feel itchy. One part of me believes that indeed any good change, no matter how small, isn't insignificant, but another part believes that good or evil, it's all the same.. this is life and doesn't allow for extremes (ideal situations, like domination of good over evil or vice versa)
Do you have other resources on the subject of consciousness? It's one of those questions that can keep me literally awake for several nights. In my opinion, I think we need to solve the conscious "I" problem first before trying to tackle the free-will problem. Maybe, just a maybe, if we can know what that "I" really is, we can find the mapping function from subjective to objective. Although still what we call objective cannot be proven to be indeed objective (Goedl's argument about the incompleteness of mathematics)
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Eep, I'm backwards. In anything over 80F, I start withering, especially with NYC humidity. I'm much better off in the cold. :)
I took a course with this guy:
http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/block/
and a lot of the material is still online:
http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/faculty/block/consciousness/
Ever read Godel, Escher, Bach?
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Hmm.. 80F is where I start to bloom ;)
But what's there to be seen in the cold? It gets dark by 17:00 and that's it. Where do you usually go exploring when you go to the city? I've tried some Brooklyn, too.. but there's almost nothing but groceries and delis there! :P
Sheesh, this guy has some interesting stuff, although my first impression about him personally isn't very positive. Do you have the password to his slides?
Yes, I read (most of) it. Too "american" for my taste I'd say. It reminded me of "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance." What do you think of it, GEB, I mean?
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