(Untitled)

[pullthestars]

I think that I would be more willing to listen to people talking about Race!Fail and white privilege if it wasn't for the fact that those who talk about it the most are SO condescending. When you (the ubiquitous you, of course) insist on insulting the people you are trying to convince of your rightness, they will stop listening.

Really.

Comments

SO PEDANTIC, part the first.

[angrylemur]

Um. Differing and largely unpopular opinion! OH NOEZ.

You see, I agree that abusive behavior - insults, etc - is pretty uncalled for on all sides. HOWEVER, I also consider racism, sexism, etc, to be sneaky forms of societally-approved abuse in and of themselves. I know that this is considered to be kind of a radical perspective to have, but I hope you'll bare with me anyway.

Something I have run into, as a woman trying to discuss male privilege with men, and even as a white person trying to discuss white privilege with other white people, is that the condescension is far stronger on the side of those who prefer to believe that it either doesn't exist, or that they are somehow immune from having grown up in a culture of sexism and racism, etc. I am not saying that defensiveness on the part of white people when issues of race are being discussed makes said white people terrible racists, but I think what happens is something like this:

1. White person engages in privileged behaviour, of which they are unaware, because of the white privilege.
2. Person of colour notices and feels hurt and upset by this display of white privilege, says something along the lines of "woah, check that white privilege/learned subconscious racism!"
3. White person, who is a decent person at heart and as such knows that racism=bad, has the following thought process: racism = bad. Person of colour says I am engaging in racist behavior, which = racism. But I can't be racist, because that is antithetical to all the things I am invested in being as a decent person! And defensiveness is born in the white person.
4. Person of colour is frustrated by white person's defensiveness, especially given that the person of colour is the one being hurt in the first place. Frustration becomes evident by way of an increasing lack of tact.
5. White person goes, "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO CONDESCENDING CAN'T YOU SEE THAT I AM TRYING?"
6. Person of colour cannot, in fact, see that the white person is trying, because they a) are not the white person and have no special insight into their brain, and b) are too busy feeling the negative impact of the white person's white privilege.
7. EVERYONE IS UNHAPPY BECAUSE RACISM SUCKS.

QUIZ! Quizzes are fun! Who do we blame for the outcome of this reaction? One: WHITE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE GOD DAMN IT WHY DO THEY HAVE TO BE WHITE AND HAVE ALL THAT WHITE PRIVILEGE. Two: NOT WHITE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE GOD DAMN IT WHY DO THEY HAVE TO BE NOT WHITE AND ALSO SO ANGRY ABOUT RACISM. Three: RACISM AS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT, FUCK, THAT REALLY SUCKS, MAYBE WE COULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM BY NOT PERPETUATING IT REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

NOW. I don't know, because I don't think I'm reading the same things as you? I haven't noticed a lot of condescension from people talking about privilege but I'm willing to consider the fact that maybe I'm wrong - BUT, what if people (on the "hey you with the white privilege! STOP THAT" end of things) are being condescending? Does that matter, or is this just a DREADED TONE ARGUMENT, with "you're being too condescending" as code for "you're being too hostile"? I dunno! STAY TUNED FOR PART TWO I HAVE MORE THINGS TO SAY.

SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[angrylemur]

ANYWAY. Re: condescension equaling "I don't have to listen to you": All I can really say is, I find a good thing to keep in mind is that the requests being made on the part of the more marginalized people are not along the lines of "make me a sandwich!" but rather along the lines of "stop standing on my face!" - if that makes sense. There is an urgency there, as what is going on is painful, triggering, and oppressive for a lot of people. I find it very easy to relate to the anger that results of that pain, and, as Leonard Cohen once said, feeling anger is often the first step to healing in women. I'd extrapolate that it is the first step to healing for many marginalized people, including those who are marginalized by racism - that it's natural and deserves to not be invalidated by white people writing it off as condescension and saying, "I don't have to listen to you because you're so mean!"

I know it is difficult because as a white person, I've felt that indignance myself when bluntly called on my own engaging in forms of privilege. But no one ever said that unlearning racism was easy, or even that it should be. It is a painful process, and that's not the fault of people of colour, regardless of their attitude. I find that if one really wants to unlearn racism and check their privilege - unpack their napsack, etc - then it doesn't really matter if someone gives them attitude. I don't want to unlearn my own racism because of the attitude/lack of attitude/whatever of other people. I want to unlearn my own racism because that's the right thing to do, because racism hurts and oppresses people and I do not want to be an oppressor. I could care less about other peoples' tone - their pain is not my property, I do not get to tell them what to do with it, just as other people do not get to tell me what to do with my own pain as a woman and a survivor of abuse. In a perfect world, everyone would be able to communicate their frustrations and ideas and pain, etc, to each other in ways that were totally respectful and constructive. But we do not live in a perfect world, and to say that that is what makes people stop listening and be racist is rather short-sighted.

That was really long winded. I hope that makes sense and was not condescending! But, um, yeah.

PS: HERE IS A BLOG ABOUT A BABY OWL. If you have read all of this you deserve it, I am so goddamn long-winded it is fucking ridiculous, I know. I really am sorry about that.

Re: SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[pullthestars]

HAI LAURA.

don't apologize, sweetie. I don't mind :)

So far, the people that I've experienced this condescension with are all white people. And it comes across as, "I'm fully aware of all of my white privilege and you OBVIOUSLY are not, and thusly I am Better Than You."

Which honestly makes me want to punch them in the face.

Mind you, this is the internet, and as I have yet to perfect my Mind Reading Technique (SOON, MY CHILDREN), I could be reading more into than what is there.

But I really don't think it's that difficult to have a reasonable and respectful conversation and discussion between two people!

And I'm not saying it's what's making people stop listening and continue with their racist ways. It's what's making ME want to punch certain folks in the noggin.

And here, have a redonkulously cute kitteh.

Re: SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[angrylemur]

Ah. Well, speaking again from my own experience, I have frequently felt really goddamn frustrated with other white people when confronted with "Privilege Is Not An Issue Because I Say It's Not, So There" and it's hard for me to know how to deal with that, sometimes. Especially since there is this weird thing with whiteness, where sometimes other white people think that because I'm white it's "safe" to express weird, racist things to me, and then it's like, UM, ACTUALLY, NO, GO AWAY.

I have been accused of being overly hostile and a big fat meanie who hates everyone with my responses to this kind of thing.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I honestly don't think that white people have ANY right to self-righteousness when it comes to racism. Srsly. Still and all, I sometimes feel kind of... embittered? when it comes to talking about race with other white people. I don't like getting shat on for daring to challenge the effects of whiteness on perception, and that's happened to me, just like I've been shat on for talking openly about abuse and sexism and how those things are intertwined. I'm still willing to talk about these things, but I think my attitude has suffered from the fact that I've actually lost friends and been treated like crap over calling people on abusing their privilege, and had people start avoiding me because that stuff just makes them too uncomfortable or whatever. And I am sure those people don't actually give a shit, but it sucks to deal with sometimes! Not as much as it would suck if I were not white, though, I'm sure - I don't mean to go all White Women's Tears over here, jesus - It's just, I am not a graceful person, so I have a hard time handling that shit gracefully on occasion. But this is getting really off topic and THE POINT IS, discussing racism is hard and reactions are usually ugly on many ends because racism is ugly! This is your shocked face, I know.

Did I mention it's midnight here? THAT KITTEN IS AMAZING. I'll stop rambling now! Yes.

Re: SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[apestyle]

Wait, so Eddie Murphy was right? When there are no "minorities" around white people party?

In my little corner of the internet, I've angered several white men in their 50s by gently trying to prod them away from the word "oriental". The defensiveness was almost comical. Almost.

Re: SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[apestyle]

Oh, I found a better version:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-live-white-like-me

Re: SO PEDANTIC, part the second.

[angrylemur]

Yeah, well, my most significant experience of this has been with my dad's family, who are just nuts (like, certifiably), and also quite racist, specifically against Asian people. They will actually go out to dinner and be like, "Hey let's try that new sushi place" and smile and be all polite in the restaurant, and then as soon as they leave start in with "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT JAPANESE GUY BEING ALL ASIAN IN THERE, WHAT NERVE". (And then I'd be like, "That's, um, some pretty racist attitudes you've got going on there," and my grandfather would be like, "BUT I LIKE BLACK PEOPLE!" Just... so much dysfunction. But anyway.)

It is no small part of why I no longer speak to them.

I have observed something similar, but on an unconscious level, going on with other people, too. I think that sometimes white people will just be more inclined to check themselves around people of colour than they will be around other white people, because they don't think about race when surrounded by whiteness. It's not always because white people are consciously racist (like my family) but just because socialization tends to manifest when allowed to go unexamined like that.