An apology.

[puella_nerdii]

I'm not really back, mostly because I'm in the middle of hell week for the production I'm working on and today's my only free day until next week, but I've been doing some thinking over the weekend, and I wanted to say this.

I reacted badly last Wednesday, and I'm sorry.

I shouldn't have said that the behavior of dub fans "sickened" me. There are

Comments

[legit]

Hi, I was about to type up something and I realized you said it perfectly, echoing your sentiment.

Also the biggest reason this pissed me off is because of who you are. Having someone as influential in this fandom as you essentially promoting that level of hatred towards the dub and fans of it just really isn't good because people will follow your example.

Particularly this. It kinda stinks cause I know the people working on the dub, so hearing that I supported them kind of insulted me. I mean, taking away the dub, the whole anti-licensing affair people are adopting is quickly turning me off of this fandom then again, three years is a bit long. The whole attitude a lot are adopting of Funi simply approaching it in the first place, much less dubbing it is apparently akin to something of a hate crime. I've already had someone describe licensing to me, and then tell me point blank that FUNIMATION DOESN'T DO THAT--THEY RUIN THINGS.

And...uh, they're just a company, who made a legitimate business deal with the Hetalia anime company to make it more available to us, and you know, make it so we don't have to pirate the anime. If there's one thing I'm disliking about this whole affair is that people won't buy the series as some form of protest of a dub they don't even have to watch and in the end stealing in a sense from the same company they're trying 'to protect'.

Sorry, I rambled on you, but uh, tl;dr my thoughts exactly on everything you said.

[miezen]

Oh no no don't apologize! You've added another good insight, too. Ultimately what not supporting this release will result in won't be sticking it to FUNimation for all the offensive jokes they added. It will just be harmful to the Japanese companies involved, and yes, Himaruya himself. I don't like the idea of people promoting that course of action. You can justify it however you like, but advocating not buying the FUNi release is advocating stealing the series from its creators. Unless of course you buy the Japanese R2 DVDs.

[skelody]

No doubt you two mean that pirating the FUNi release is advocating stealing the series from its creators, and simply assumed that the implication was clear. Unless for some reason you regard non-purchase as theft, in which case I freely confess my guilt in having committed grand theft auto :P

[miezen]

No, I consider it to be theft to watch a series without paying for it, be it pirating FUNi's release or watching fansubs. Most anime fans do it, myself included, but it's still wrong. Advocating actively choosing to steal the series over buying FUNi's DVDs (or the R2 ones) isn't cool.

[skelody]

Much clearer :)

[legit]

Actually I meant more like when people chose NOT to purchase a series simply because they dislike a dub. Not only is it stealing already though admittedly we all HAVE to do it sometimes cause we can't gain access to the source material otherwise but trying to justify that just because you don't agree with how a licensing company see a character/their choice of voice/or differs in some other opinion that you advocate not buying--not saying that anyone here is, just that it's becoming some kind of weird movement in fandom--and instead keep downloading as a form of "STICK IT TO THE MAN" is wrong on a lot of levels.

First off, the Japanese companies LIKE it when things get licensced because it helps them get more money in the end. Why would they agree if they didn't want it in the first place? I don't understand the logic that fandom has of "OH THE HUMANITY" when it means more for Hidekaz and the animators if it gets licensed and released. Because people don't agree with a dub that they don't even have to watch, people aren't going to buy the series they love so much even if they have the means to?

I mean if you want to not buy, you don't have to, you really don't. But this air of just "I'm better than you because I won't buy this series solely for it's optional dub and you 'true fans' shouldn't either" is rather insulting not to mention confusing?

If you have a problem, contact Funi, they want to hear our input because we're their customers, they want to appease us because we make them and Hetalia's animators money. Don't just start attacking their customers for buying something you don't agree with, what did these people do to you?

This pretty much sums up my feelings on using piracy as a form of protest. My ranting aside, I guess it seems to take a wrong ethical edge with how so many people who already were opposed to licensing though I can't understand why? are citing the dubs as the whole proverbial 'straw that broke the camel's back' when it was never that in the first place.

...I hope any of that makes like a lick of sense, it's been a long day for me and my thought process is kind of...wonky.

[dyxlisa]

I'm probably going to kick myself for getting involved with this later, but wanted to add there's other ways to support the companies and Himaruya; buying merchandise, figures, artbooks, guides, the manga itself. I do own many of these things; refusing to support the dub release doesn't mean I'm wallowing in piracy. In any case, I have been watching the anime streamed online at funimation' s site, which I love, as I can demonstrate support for the sub that way with page views if nothing else, and if they stated selling downloads of the subs as they have for other series I'd certainly consider buying those. I wouldn't be adverse to buying the dvds in the future either, should they try to change things; I've been a big fan of some of their productions in the past, and I do own a number of their dvds. I mean, I love them forever for rescuing One Piece. That said, there are a lot of things about the dub that I like, but everyone has different lines for what is acceptable, and this dub crossed my line a few too many times. And the truth is, my pocketbook is my most powerful method of protest.

[amethyst_amore]

I wanted to say this earlier, but thought better of it. Glad you did because you put it into words better than I ever could. Well said.

[miezen]

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to be so rational about it. People have already complained about the English version of the manga because of the covers. Others won't buy it just because it's Tokyopop. Most of these people won't buy the Japanese versions of the manga because they aren't easily accessible and they can't read Japanese. People complain left and right about not wanting to buy the merchandise because it's "too expensive". And in case you haven't noticed, the anime industry as a whole is in danger because of how little people are willing to support it.

The problem with protesting by not buying is that there are people that will still buy it. Probably enough so that FUNi doesn't have to worry too much. And honestly anime fans have a history of refusing to buy something and claiming they will if condition X is met, but when condition X is met, they find condition Y to keep them from buying. FUNi is likely to look at non-buyers as flakes like that and say "Why bother with their demands? Even if we fix that, they'll find something else to complain about". That's why promoting piracy as protest just....isn't good.

[dyxlisa]

I think you are picking the wrong fights if your basic goal is to support the anime industry, which, don't get me wrong, is a noble goal. However, I think your main point is being lost. If your goal is to convince people to support the industry, then there are many ways to do that, not just supporting the dub, and think you will find people will be more receptive if you point out those methods than if you insist that people MUST support the dub. Someone who won't by dvds might buy manga. Someone who won't buy manga might buy figures. Someone who won't buy figures might buy a calendar. As for the people resistant to buying anything at all, which I find to actually be a minority, you're wasting your time talking to them. However, I find that most of the silent majority is reasonable and ethical; they just usually don't have the time, will, or motivation to argue about it online.

I am well aware that refusing to buy it may accomplish nothing. That's the problem with any boycott; it only will do anything if there is a systemic backlash. "It won't do anything" is defeatist and not a compelling reason for me to buy something I take issue with. Further, nothing in what I said promotes piracy. Refusing to buy something is not piracy. In any case, Funimation streams its releases free online anyway; someone wouldn't even need to buy the dvd's to watch the show for free, and it would be perfectly legal. In some cases these streamed videos have helped me to decide to buy a series. In this case, they helped me decide I did not want to.

I don't think discussing this further will benefit either of us.

[miezen]

I don't think discussing this further will benefit either of us.

Why not? You seem to be open to discussion, and I certainly am. I'd like to keep this going since it's an interesting debate and I believe it is worthwhile to have.

You do make valid points. Also I wasn't saying you were promoting piracy, sorry if I failed to word that clearly. I meant the initial remarks made by puella and others advocating a DVD boycott. While you may have pure intentions, that's going to attract people who are looking for an excuse to not pay for their cartoons to use this as an excuse to make them feel justified in not buying. Whether or not that type of thing is avoidable is a non-issue IMO; it's something that should not be aided in any manner.

The problem I have with people using this as a reason to not buy it isn't the people who are strictly doing it because racism like this in any form isn't okay with them. It's the people who claim they won't buy it because it's a dishonor to Himaruya (or Studio DEEN or whoever else). Because ultimately this IS hurting them, NOT helping.

[dyxlisa]

I say so there is not much point in continuing because I think we are at the point where you are not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours. The basic point of difference is you think preventing piracy is more important and that anything that could possibly contribute to someone committing piracy is wrong. While I think protesting racism is more important and that the possibility that protesting it may lead to piracy that would not otherwise have occurred is dwarfed by my concern over the dub's content. Moreover, that is not in my opinion very likely; people who would use this as an excuse were never going to buy it anyway. To me, what you are saying is that our concerns about the dub should be subordinate to your concern about it possibly promoting piracy, and therefore it should not be discussed. I don't agree with this.

[miezen]

My concern here is actually twofold. I don't think it's a good idea to give people an excuse to pirate things. Doesn't it cheapen your cause to some extent when it becomes nothing more than an excuse? But also, I've seen quite a lot of people who are offended by the dub such as yourself trying to shame people into believing the same about it and not support it. That really doesn't sit well with me for various reasons. But fair enough. There's more to discussion than trying to change people's minds, but I'm fine with ending this here.

[legit]

Oh, I understand that completely, really I do. I understand that it's a powerful statement to not buy, though it still seems a little wrong to me. Sure it'll hit them harder than a letter ever will, but at the same time, I think if you're willing to buy downloads of the subs, why not get the dvds themselves? The dvds come with a sub option, the dub isn't hardwired to be the only thing on the dvds, in fact, I know I'm most likely going to end up doing that myself.

I guess I should've worded myself when I mean to say, the my problem lies in with the movement of fans that are harassing other fans if only because they're choosing to buy the dvds, not all of us are watching it in dub. I'm sure by no means is Funimation perfect, I used to be pretty anti-Funi myself hi bitter DBZ fan but I think that a lot of people are using the excuse of "ANTI-LICENSING"--not saying most, but a good chunk--and dubbing as something that is driving them to boycott when they were never going to buy in the first place. I think the problem with this is, only a few are actively telling Funimation what's wrong, a lot of sentiment I've seen is just general griping about it's being licensed. Funimation isn't psychic, they're going to need to know why the large fanbase is upset, so people are going to have to say more.

I'm not saying by any means you're less of a fan if you don't buy at all. Admittedly I've got a good chunks of bootlegs myself ironically all of my One Piece is, but what I am saying that it's kind of hypocritical to be judgmental of people who're buying the dvds and not necessarily even going to be listening to the dub, when they themselves are downloading illegal subs. Some buy merchandise true, but there's a bit of a price difference between a plush and a dvd set. Also general consensus has been from some rabid anti-funimation people I've gotten in contact via cosplay is no one is buying Merchandise anyway, at least official. I guess what I'm trying to say is "Why judge us for supporting?"

[dyxlisa]

I've sent letters, my own fandom for friends have sent letters, we're all rather mad and most of us were planning on buying the dvd until these issues came up. I hope funimation listens to us. You see no reason to not buy the dvd because you don't find the dub as abhorrent as we do and don't have a desire to protest its content.That's fine, but please stop trying to convince me that buyingit is the r.ight thing to do. To me it of anything but. I feel anything else I day will retread what haas been discussed in the previous thread.

[legit]

Actually I never said I didn't have problems with the dub myself, I do, that's why I'm making use of the sub option in the dvds. But I realize we're hitting two different directions here as you're claiming that I'm trying to force you to buy the dvds as some kind of funimation spokeswoman, which wasn't my intention at all, I was in fact talking about licensing issues and fandom.

But alright, I guess we'll just end the convo here since we're at an impasse it seems.