on gender fail, in general. And tv renewals.

[prozacpark]

So, apparently, Dollhouse has been renewed. I...shouldn't be depressed by this news because I can always just, you know, not watch. But...sigh. It's hard to put in words, but this, along with the new wave of Gender Fail on "Supernatural" is depressing me. Who wants to bet "Supernatural" is totally getting renewed, too

Comments

[prozacpark]

Actually, I watched "Supernatural." For about two seasons. During which every recurring female character was turned into an evil bitch the brothers could kill or a victim the brothers could save. This show is like a Hemingway book: in its world mythology, heroism is only available to men and women just can't be heroes. Because they're there to motivate men by dying. Or motivate them by being evil.

Lilith is an evil demon from antiquity. Are you familiar with the history of Lilith at all? She has been around longer than the Bible, for instance, and her name is mentioned in the oldest extant religious texts we have -- the Sumerian myths of Inanna. Lilith has special significance to feminists and to feminist theologians who view her in a positive light. I'm fond of her, too. The fact that the show would use Lilith (someone who is seen as having rejected the patriarchal distribution of power and having been exiled from heaven as a result of this) as a villain is very offensive given that it has yet to give me a woman who survived five episodes and didn't turn out to be evil. In the two seasons I watched, anyway, and I really don't care to watch any more. They didn't have to change her gender, but did they *really* have to use her? There are demons in Christian mythology who are more interesting and male, but this show finds evil best suited to being portrayed in the form of a woman. Since I stopped watching, everything I have heard about it has only strengthened my view that "Supernatural" is possibly the worst thing on TV right now in terms of Gender Fail. And these issues all exist within the text itself, without touching the insane levels of misogyny in the fandom.

The thing about "Dollhouse" is that the premise is problematic. And really, leaving the gender issues aside? "Dollhouse" is just...not a very good show. Both "Buffy" and "Angel" improved in their second seasons, but they had a premise that worked at its conception, and I kind of think that while "Dollhouse" had an interesting premise, the part of it that Joss finds interesting? Is the dullest part of it. Which is a shame because it had potential. I doubt it would improve much next season.

[abrakadabrah]

Lilith is an evil demon from antiquity. Are you familiar with the history of Lilith at all?

Yep. But they appear, on the whole, to be using the Judeo-Christian tradition. Except a few disempowered pagan gods and a trickster god and a djinn. Most of the rest of the mythology appears derived from judeo-christian tradition if only of an extremely twisted version thereof. And then they set about being equal opportunity offenders of sacred cows, as it were.

She has been around longer than the Bible, for instance, and her name is mentioned in the oldest extant religious texts we have -- the Sumerian myths of Inanna. Lilith has special significance to feminists and to feminist theologians who view her in a positive light. I'm fond of her, too. The fact that the show would use Lilith (someone who is seen as having rejected the patriarchal distribution of power and having been exiled from heaven as a result of this) as a villain is very offensive

And I can see where the whole problem of Lilith being the choice might be problematic for some people - but then that's an issue from the beginning of season 3 rather than one that develops only in the finale of season 4 because she is killed off for being evil.

My problem with the role is somewhat different - I think she was a fairly boring villain. So they essentially wasted what could have been a great, nuanced opportunity.

For example, there was this demon named Alastair on the show this year - and he was a fantastic villain. Really interesting and entertaining and perverse. I was so sad when they killed him off, because he made a great antagonist and I felt it was premature.

Similarly, I think they needed a more strongly written part for Lilith and a better actress that conveyed more.

Ruby, OTOH, was a complex villain. She was very well developed and written. And it was fun working out what she was up to.

given that it has yet to give me a woman who survived five episodes and didn't turn out to be evil.

Yep, Anna. That is if she survived her ambiguous final scene. I loved Anna.

In the two seasons I watched, anyway, and I really don't care to watch any more. They didn't have to change her gender, but did they *really* have to use her?

Just, by the bye, Sera Gamble argued for a female villain and chose Lilith. And I don't think that is because she is so oppressed by the patriarchy that she can't see straight, either.

The thing about "Dollhouse" is that the premise is problematic. And really, leaving the gender issues aside? "Dollhouse" is just...not a very good show. Both "Buffy" and "Angel" improved in their second seasons, but they had a premise that worked at its conception, and I kind of think that while "Dollhouse" had an interesting premise, the part of it that Joss finds interesting? Is the dullest part of it. Which is a shame because it had potential. I doubt it would improve much next season.

I agree with you that the premise is problematic. Like a giant squick fest. And I for one found DH to be a very cold show - if they are going to improve it, I think they need to shake the whole thing up radically. Less Eliza, much more ensemble. I hope they are letting themselves genuinely hear the criticism. Can they remake it into a better show? I don't know. I think it is possible though given the calibre of the people working on it.

[meganbmoore]

There is no Judeo-Christian Lilith. Lilith is sometimes discussed in Judeo-Christian tradition, but as something that exists outside of it, not as a part of it.

By the way, have you read essay anthology In the Hunt? In it, Jacob Clifton puts forth that Supernatural has a strong and prominent female presence because evil women "pervert" (his word) the relationship between Sam and Dean. And the thing is, that's the truth of female power in Supernatural. It's evil and corrupt and something to be overcome by the "good" male power and presence. That is a core and overwhelming element of the show, and the fact that the show is at least partly built around the idea of female power being bad and male power being good means that the misogyny is built in. You say that there are male villains, and it's true, there are. But the protagonists-the continuing protagonists who aren't going to disappear-are men. There are no major female protagonists to serve as a counterbalance to the portrayal of females and female power as an evil that must be overcome by males.