Mountaineering experience
"What you need is combat experience. That's what keeps you alive in real combat."
"OK, but how can you tell the difference between combat experience and real combat?"
"Simple. If you're alive at the end, it was combat experience."
(From The Ballad of Halo Jones)
Saturday's trip to the hills started inauspiciously: I slept through all my alarms, and ( Read more... )
"OK, but how can you tell the difference between combat experience and real combat?"
"Simple. If you're alive at the end, it was combat experience."
(From The Ballad of Halo Jones)
Saturday's trip to the hills started inauspiciously: I slept through all my alarms, and ( Read more... )
I think the nurse was wrong to say it was your fault, he wasn't there. I wasn't there either but hopefully i can make helpful comments.
The incident seems to hinge on the decision to glissade down the slope, although actually i think it was other stuff that went wrong, but its worth discussing that decision. I am surprised that you both misjudged the steepness and seriousness of the slope, so soon after ice axe arrest practice. It seems that Jo suggested that you could slide down the slope safely, and you judged that you could do it safely and assumed that she could too. I don't have a problem with glissading in principle, and it seems that you managed it ok, so you were right about your judgement of your own abilities. I think Jo decided to slide down the slope and that was a mistake. I wonder if you would even have considered glissading if you had both had crampons.
Looking at it from the start, I think you made some bad choices about equipment. I wouldn't do ice axe arrest pactice without helments, and i would recommend wearing a helmet whenever near a cliff. For scottish winter conditions they are worth carrying, and normally wearing for anything remotely dodgy, including glissading. Crampons and axe likewise; when you put crampons on suddenly everything is easy (you need a set of equipment each). I wonder if you were losing your footing before you sat down and thats why sitting down seemed like an obvious step; i'm guessing, i wasn't there. I think it was reasonable not to take a rope.
The ice axe arrest practice showed you the snow conditions, but i think you needed to do more here. Your description of "Crud" sounds a lot like neve (acute accents on both e's) which is nice to climb on if you have crampons. Normally the problem with arresting practice is finding a steep enough slope that is still safe. Normally people stop sliding too easily without having to engage the axe. Ideally you should progress onto steeper slopes as you gain confidence so that you are practicing on the kind of slope where you really would have got out of control in the first place. You should practice on your front and on your back, feet first and head first. Hard neve might make it quite difficult, you really need to get pressure onto the pick.
I think leaving the path may have been a mistake. Paths are great because they normally follow a sensible route. This might be a zigzag to gain height gently so an apparently meandering path might still be worth taking. Its hard to say for sure, you sound like you were fairly happy with that decision with hindsight, so maybe that was ok. I would go for the bridge every time if the river is anything more than a trickle. Its possible to do river crossings safely, but its not worth the hassle if there's an alternative.
Did you both have head torches? You should always carry them in the hills. Some people reccomend survival bags too.
Its best to keep car keys and phone in a dry bag, in an inner pocket (I have a handy secret pocket under the lid of my bag). You are really screwed if you lose the car keys!
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I'm not sure what the nurse was getting at: I think he meant that, as the leader of the party, I was responsible for the safety of my less experienced friend, even if I wasn't directly to blame for her injury. If so, I can see his point.
Not bringing helmets was definitely a mistake, and I don't think I'll be making it again. They're a bit awkward to carry, but they're pretty light, so there's not much excuse if you've got one. Persuading the people I go walking with to shell out for crampons and axes might be tricky, but it's worth a go.
Névé - thanks, I knew there was a proper word for it :-) That sounds exactly like the stuff we encountered. "Crud" isn't quite right, anyway - I think crud's meant to be névé that's been cut up by skis (and ideally refrozen again, for maximum horribleness).
In hindsight, I'm not sure why we made the decision to glissade. It was a big smooth snow slope, and I think it looked like a tempting way of losing some height quickly. I think you're right about me judging that I could do it and assuming she could too. There's actually a picture of the slope we did arrest practice on here - we practiced a bit to the right of the footprints (scroll down a bit). A nice length for practicing on, and the névé meant we had to engage the axe to stop, but it wasn't as steep as some of the slopes we encountered later.
Yes, we both had head torches :-) Jo had a survival bag, and I had a space blanket thing - I think I'll get a survival bag as well. Good tip on the dry bag, thanks. Losing the car keys would have been a big problem - there's a spare set, but it was back in Glasgow, and by the time we'd got down the last train had gone.
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The first thing that leaps out thought is that while Andy says, keep your car keys in an inner rucksack pocket I keep mine in an inner jacket/trouser pocket. I've been separated from my rucksack before.
Most canoeist keep theirs in the buoyancy aids if there is any chance at all that you will be losing a boat.
Sam
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I've had a better chance to read the story in full now and I'll comment below.
First up, who am I? Well, I'm Andy's sometime climbing partner, ex flat&course mate and he pointed me here. I'm also an outdoor instructor based in North Wales with about 12 years of hillwalking and mountaineering experience. I've probably climbed less vertical feet than Andy but I am out several days each week in the mountains with beginners. I also work with several guys on the rescue team in Llanberis and so I hear a lot of first hand rescue stories.
What am I not? Well I hope I'm not a patronising know-it-all instructor. I am very impressed that you have asked for comments on the incident and that your reporting is so honest and open. I always say my advice is "freely given and gladly ignored". If you think I am an interfering busybody feel free to disregard my thoughts. As always, the below represents only my personal thoughts on your tale.
First things first, I don't think you made any mistakes, in that all your decisions were thought out and rational. Nothing in your tale leaps out at me and says "Why did he do that?". There were a couple of errors of judgement that compounded to have unpleasant consequences but I think you dealt with these consequences an awful lot better than many people would.
With that in mind here is what I think would have done differently in the same situations.
I think the fact that a fall happened at all was precipitated by the decision to take only one set of crampons and axes. You obviously felt that they might be needed during that day, otherwise you wouldn't have taken them. What made you think Jo wouldn't? As a general rule if one of the party has crampons and an axe, the others should too. If they don't, go find a route that won't need them.
Wearing crampons without an axe in your hand is a horrible thing to do. No matter how practiced you are, crampons make you clumsy and the axe gives you stability. If you put your crampons on it is normally on terrain where you think you might slip and so need better grip. If you think you might slip then you need and axe.
The other thing you don't mention is Jo's footwear. You say they wont take crampons, does this mean the sole is flexible? For moving over snow, rigid soles (B3) make kicking steps and standing on smaller steps easier. Even without crampons, rigid boots provide much better grip on hard packed snow. I was out in the Carpathians with my sister recently and I had winter (B3) boots on while she had summer (B1) boots. We got to the top of a couple of peaks simply because I could stamp and kick steps in the crusty snow where her boots skidded over the surface. She then used these steps to climb.
The other way to deal with people only having summer boots is one we use with kids and that is to carry a rope. The leader crampons his way up the steep icy section, cutting or kicking steps on the way and then ropes the rest up one at a time. It is slow but it is a good way of dealing with short icy sections. Obviously this requires good rope technique and an understanding of belaying. I have 20m of 7mm static cord I use for this type of thing. It weighs under a kilo and fits in a bag about the size of a jar of coffee.
I find it interesting that you chose to cross the river rather than walk 1km upstream to a bridge. Similar to glissading, if you look up 'River Crossing' in the ML Handbook, it virtually says don't. I would never ford a river unless I had to. Certainly wading is unpleasant, cold and potentially dangerous. A 2km detour seems worth every minute of the extra half an hour it would have taken.
Andy mentioned helmets and I agree with him that, when practicing ice axe arrests I would always wear one. I don't always carry one when winter hillwalking but to be honest, its rare nowadays that I go out without being on my way to a climb. Certainly at the point at which you rope up I would have a helmet on.
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There are two useful techniques to judging slope angle. One is to drop your axe into it so it stands vertical in the snow. You can then compare the angle of the slop with the shaft and head. The other is to roll snowballs down it and see how fast they accelerate.
What type of waterproofs was Jo wearing? The cheaper, and older, nylon types with a shiny surface provide almost no friction on snow and mean the wearer accelerates very quickly. Even sitting down in them is scary. I chose my MEC trousers because they have an almost velvet finish and don't slide very well at all.
Given that an ice axe is use to control your speed when you glissade, what were you planning to do to get down? From your description of how Jo was holding the axe it seems to be the same as me, I dig the point in behind me to slow me down. There are other ways but I find that the most effective. I also unleash my axe. Next time you are practicing arrests, try recovering your axe from the end of its leash once you have dropped it. It is almost impossible and frankly I'd rather not be tied to a sharp object once it's out of my control.
I also prefer to remove my crampons while glissading. The risk of catching a point and breaking an ankle is horrifying to me. This, of course, has to be balanced with knowing you wont need them when you stop.
The first aid seems like it was quick and good. You obviously learnt to kick a step for anything you want to put down on steep ground. I once had to go down 200m to retrieve my rucksack before learning this lesson. If you haven't done a first aid course, I strongly recommend you do.
I already talked about putting the car keys in an inside jacket pocket so they stay with the driver. On one memorable occasion, Imperial College Canoe Clubs were faced with a long walk after one of its members was airlifted to hospital with the minibus keys in the pocket of a buoyancy aid that was being used as a splint!
The fact that Jo fell a second time was almost inevitable and, short of lowering her rope length by rope length (entirely doable for 100-150m), there wasn't much you could do. I think I would have taken axe and crampons myself and created a set of steps for her to use but unless I was in the situation it's difficult to say.
Your evacuation seemed sensible and well carried out. I won't comment on either your testicles or your time in A&E since neither are my area of expertise, other than to say that the nurse sounds like a pillock.
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The other thing is, you mentioned getting a survival bag. I wouldn't bother, I'd invest in a group shelter. If you have spend the night out, you may as well sit/lie together and be cosy, warmer and have some company. They weigh the same as survival bag and are much easier to use. Another concern with plastic bags is that they slide on snow. There was a horrible case on Tower Ridge on Ben Nevis where two ladies got benighted and climbed into their survival bags. One woke in the morning to discover the other had slid to her death inside her bag.
Finally I'd say, don't fret too much about this incident.We all have mishaps in the outdoors, it seems the day you had yours, I had my own much more silly one. Learn from it, as you seem to be willing to do , and let it inspire you to keep your skills sharp. The mountains are a special place and it should take more than one hiccup to prevent you from going back out into them.
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