Oh, this isn't argumentative at all, and I think there's definitely some truth to what you're saying.
Personally, I really don't disagree with how far Bernie wants to take things. At the risk of being accused of defeatism, I'm honestly skeptical about how far it's realistic to try to take things, in a country where there are a lot of people who would love to take things very, VERY far in the opposite direction and tens of thousands of people are happy to vote for a guy who wants to treat Muslims and immigrants as some sort of lower life forms.
WHAT Bernie wants to do is great; the problem is how many people would have to be persuaded in order for him to be ABLE to do it.
And I imagine a general election campaign full of smear ads accusing him of being a communist (because OF COURSE there's no difference whatsoever between communism and socialism, doncha know), and I know how scary those words are to a lot of people, and my heart just sinks at the thought of another Republican (or an even scarier pseudo-Republican like Trump) in the White House. Getting Bernie nominated is one thing; you only have to persuade Democrats and left-leaning independents to accomplish that. But to get him elected, you have to persuade a hell of a lot more people, many, MANY of whom will just NOT be able to get it, imo. He can say "democratic socialism" till he's blue in the face, but a lot of people will only hear the "socialism" part, and hear that as a Very Bad Thing.
I have absolutely no problem understanding why a lot of people are supporting Bernie. I just wish they could figure out how to do it without resorting to certain kinds of tactics.
Bernie has more cross-over appeal to GOP voters than Clinton does. Sure some will hear socialism and run from it, but how many of *those* GOP voters could possibly be swayed to Clinton?
I'm willing to bet the farm that Clinton's electability does not reside in her ability to win over large swaths of GOP voters.
Bernie does better with GOP voters and if he can win the necessary DEM votes to become the nominee, who's left, IND voters? IND voters are Bernie's specialty!
Or am I misunderstanding and you think general election DEM voters will flip out and vote against Bernie in the generals, despite him winning the party primary?
1. Do you have a source for Bernie's crossover appeal to GOP voters? I actually hadn't heard about that, and I'd like to know more.
2. No argument there.
3. Like I said, I need to know more about Bernie's crossover appeal. (Not disputing what you're saying--just saying I'm not aware of this and want to see the "evidence" for myself.
4. No--make that HELL NO--II definitely don'tt think many Dem voters would vote against Bernie in the general. What I hear most Dems saying, regardless of their 1st choice nominee, is that they will support whichever one gets the nom--because either of them is orders of magnitude better than any of the GOP clowns. Because they know we will better off with a Dem in the WH than a Repug.
In closing, I do feel that if Hill loses to Bern, it'll be her own damn fault. For example, I'm kind of ticked off at her over the whole email server thing, tbh. Not because I think she did anything horrible, but because it 's nagl, aand someone who knows her every move is being so intensely scrutinized by her enemies should have had enough sense not to do anything that would have the slightest whiff of impropriety. She shot herself in the foot with that stunt, imo, and created a problem for herself that was completely avoidable.
But I digress. As I said, if Bernie gets the nom, I will def. vote for him, and I think the vast majority of other Dems will as well. So if he really does have as much crossover appeal as you say, I don't see any reason he couldn't get elected.
I know that anecdotal evidence is worthless, but I am one Republican voter who can say with confidence that I wouldn't ever vote for Hillary, but I would vote for Bernie if he ran against Cruz or Trump.
I have no idea how common this voting pattern would be. I know that Bernie's positions are actually farther from my beliefs than Hillary's are, but I also feel like we need someone in the Presidency who has new ideas and pushes a new agenda. I'm confident the Congress will temper his crazy plans down to something worthwhile.
The real key, for me, is that Hillary doesn't believe in anything but getting elected (and neither do Trump or Cruz). She will gladly change position on any issue in order to win the election (as will Trump or Cruz). Bernie actually cares about what he is saying and what he believes, and I feel like that makes him a better President.
Ideally, I'd want John Huntsman or Michael Bloomberg to run, so I could vote for them. :)
I like Kasich, and would vote for him over Sanders. Rubio vs. Sanders would be tough...a month ago I'd have chosen Rubio, but as time goes on and he continues to stick his foot in his mouth and reveal who he is, I'm more and more likely to choose Sanders. I really liked Christie, but he's out now.
So you may not have heard about this, but Bernie won 25% of the GOP vote in VT. I know VT is a small sample size, but also the fact that Bernie is the only candidate, on either side, who has a nation wide net positive approval rating.
All other candidates have a net negative. Within their own parties, they have positive approval, but when looking at the nation at large, only Sanders has a net positive rating.
His track record as an IND, who will critique the DEM party is appealing to GOP voters. Surely he agrees with the DEM party more than the GOP party, hence who he caucused with in congress for 20+ years, but, there's also a damn good reason he didn't run as a DEM in VT.
I think his cross-over appeal is significantly higher than Clinton's, even if his crossover appeal only wins over 10-20% of GOP voters, that'd be massive. I cannot imagine Clinton getting above 5-10% of GOP voters, even if they select a fucking nutjob like Trump or Cruz as their nominee.
Well, that is VERY interesting. Thanks for educating me.
I know a lot of Repubs don't care for Hillary, but I think that if Trump got the GOP nom, a lot of the non-crazy ones who realize how dangerous he is would vote for her. I don't know what percent of the GOP voting base that is, however. :-/
Afaic, either Bernie or Hillary would be immeasurably better than any of those GOP assclowns. I'm sticking with Hillary for now, but I'll support anyone who gets the Dem nomination.
I'm sure I would anyway (see icon), but it's never been more true than in 2016.
Personally, I really don't disagree with how far Bernie wants to take things. At the risk of being accused of defeatism, I'm honestly skeptical about how far it's realistic to try to take things, in a country where there are a lot of people who would love to take things very, VERY far in the opposite direction and tens of thousands of people are happy to vote for a guy who wants to treat Muslims and immigrants as some sort of lower life forms.
WHAT Bernie wants to do is great; the problem is how many people would have to be persuaded in order for him to be ABLE to do it.
And I imagine a general election campaign full of smear ads accusing him of being a communist (because OF COURSE there's no difference whatsoever between communism and socialism, doncha know), and I know how scary those words are to a lot of people, and my heart just sinks at the thought of another Republican (or an even scarier pseudo-Republican like Trump) in the White House. Getting Bernie nominated is one thing; you only have to persuade Democrats and left-leaning independents to accomplish that. But to get him elected, you have to persuade a hell of a lot more people, many, MANY of whom will just NOT be able to get it, imo. He can say "democratic socialism" till he's blue in the face, but a lot of people will only hear the "socialism" part, and hear that as a Very Bad Thing.
I have absolutely no problem understanding why a lot of people are supporting Bernie. I just wish they could figure out how to do it without resorting to certain kinds of tactics.
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I'm willing to bet the farm that Clinton's electability does not reside in her ability to win over large swaths of GOP voters.
Bernie does better with GOP voters and if he can win the necessary DEM votes to become the nominee, who's left, IND voters? IND voters are Bernie's specialty!
Or am I misunderstanding and you think general election DEM voters will flip out and vote against Bernie in the generals, despite him winning the party primary?
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1. Do you have a source for Bernie's crossover appeal to GOP voters? I actually hadn't heard about that, and I'd like to know more.
2. No argument there.
3. Like I said, I need to know more about Bernie's crossover appeal. (Not disputing what you're saying--just saying I'm not aware of this and want to see the "evidence" for myself.
4. No--make that HELL NO--II definitely don'tt think many Dem voters would vote against Bernie in the general. What I hear most Dems saying, regardless of their 1st choice nominee, is that they will support whichever one gets the nom--because either of them is orders of magnitude better than any of the GOP clowns. Because they know we will better off with a Dem in the WH than a Repug.
In closing, I do feel that if Hill loses to Bern, it'll be her own damn fault. For example, I'm kind of ticked off at her over the whole email server thing, tbh. Not because I think she did anything horrible, but because it 's nagl, aand someone who knows her every move is being so intensely scrutinized by her enemies should have had enough sense not to do anything that would have the slightest whiff of impropriety. She shot herself in the foot with that stunt, imo, and created a problem for herself that was completely avoidable.
But I digress. As I said, if Bernie gets the nom, I will def. vote for him, and I think the vast majority of other Dems will as well. So if he really does have as much crossover appeal as you say, I don't see any reason he couldn't get elected.
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I have no idea how common this voting pattern would be. I know that Bernie's positions are actually farther from my beliefs than Hillary's are, but I also feel like we need someone in the Presidency who has new ideas and pushes a new agenda. I'm confident the Congress will temper his crazy plans down to something worthwhile.
The real key, for me, is that Hillary doesn't believe in anything but getting elected (and neither do Trump or Cruz). She will gladly change position on any issue in order to win the election (as will Trump or Cruz). Bernie actually cares about what he is saying and what he believes, and I feel like that makes him a better President.
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I like Kasich, and would vote for him over Sanders. Rubio vs. Sanders would be tough...a month ago I'd have chosen Rubio, but as time goes on and he continues to stick his foot in his mouth and reveal who he is, I'm more and more likely to choose Sanders. I really liked Christie, but he's out now.
I would vote for Kasich or Rubio over Clinton.
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All other candidates have a net negative. Within their own parties, they have positive approval, but when looking at the nation at large, only Sanders has a net positive rating.
A few links:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/22/1395700/-Republicans-for-Bernie-Sanders
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/08/bernie-sanders-dont-be-surprised-if-we-do-well-with-a-number-of-republicans/
His track record as an IND, who will critique the DEM party is appealing to GOP voters. Surely he agrees with the DEM party more than the GOP party, hence who he caucused with in congress for 20+ years, but, there's also a damn good reason he didn't run as a DEM in VT.
I think his cross-over appeal is significantly higher than Clinton's, even if his crossover appeal only wins over 10-20% of GOP voters, that'd be massive. I cannot imagine Clinton getting above 5-10% of GOP voters, even if they select a fucking nutjob like Trump or Cruz as their nominee.
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I know a lot of Repubs don't care for Hillary, but I think that if Trump got the GOP nom, a lot of the non-crazy ones who realize how dangerous he is would vote for her. I don't know what percent of the GOP voting base that is, however. :-/
Afaic, either Bernie or Hillary would be immeasurably better than any of those GOP assclowns. I'm sticking with Hillary for now, but I'll support anyone who gets the Dem nomination.
I'm sure I would anyway (see icon), but it's never been more true than in 2016.
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