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phaetonschariot July 10 2009, 00:16:56 UTC
(and remember: he's particularly protective of children, particularly broken over their deaths, we have seen this)

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who particularly notices this.

There are elements of soldier in his death - he doesn't want to die but he doesn't, I think, want Jack to make sacrifices to save him - but it was very. Yes. What you say.

It was an amazing death scene for him, but in the context of tv and tropes and mainstream media...

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pogrebin July 10 2009, 00:22:17 UTC
They specifically nod to this in the episode-- when it's revealed the 456 are incorporatng children into their bodies-- he actually grunts in rage and smacks his hands against the table. Which is an enormous response from a man who's usually rather controlled.

Oh, there certainly are elements of the soldier in his death. It's a playing out of what he said to Jack: you stand up to them, (the implied: at whatever personal cost.) You do the right thing. They both go into Thames House with their moral high ground, and that's why it's so heartbreaking when Jack says, 'no, I take it back, not him' when he realises Ianto's been poisoned. The soldier/lover dichotomy is something that they've hinted at, but never really, properly played out of us on camera, and it's brilliant.

It was a good death. But yeah. Context, context, context. And, you know, very deliberate marketing. I'm rather unimpressed on that front.

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phaetonschariot July 10 2009, 00:27:36 UTC
Yeah, that was one of the most heartbreaking things for me, the "I take it back". Because in the past Jack will make sacrifices, he will even probably send his people into death, in Meat Ianto was saved only because the gun was empty and Jack just sent him after the men who nearly killed him, but when faced with losing Ianto for real he couldn't. The other thing that really got me was when Gwen went to look at the bodies, Jack still looked warm, like there was blood still in his face, and Ianto was so much paler, and the soft little gasp Jack made when he woke up and remembered what had happened ( ... )

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pogrebin July 10 2009, 00:40:37 UTC
All of them really played it fantastically this ep (and the other ones) clearly having one director/Euros Lyn for an entire set of episodes really works. He's got performances out of JB that really surprised me in their subtlety and mutedness. (Of course, it had to go that way, this series is all about, for Jack, who he really is, whether he can remake himself, whether he is all surface or more than that, and so the difference between the pretense, the big, brash persona and this one had to be evident). Gwen's reaction-- pulling up Jack's sheet first and smiling sort-of-fondly before quite visibly steeling herself and hesitantly pulling back Ianto's covering-- just such a great, subtle, heartbreaking moment. And I'm with you on Jack's reaction too--a very deliberate choice to have Jack come back much more softly, mutedly than he has done in the past. And we see the remembrance come back to him-- the pain of memory, the pain of coming back rather than the pain of dying has never been so evident. Some gorgeous camera choices and acting ( ... )

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phaetonschariot July 10 2009, 00:43:47 UTC
Yes normally when I re-watch I watch Ianto's face because GDL does that amazing subtle facial acting, but Jack was fantastic with the subtleties and the subtext and everything. Also the fact that he died twice, and the first time he came back clinging to Ianto and then the second time.... not so much.

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pogrebin July 10 2009, 00:48:28 UTC
Oh, man, yeah, I forgot about that. (But I remember thinking at the time, WHOA FORESHADOWING). Even though we didn't see any sexual intimacy/kissing (besides that last, terrible, sad kiss) those little moments really worked for me in terms of their relationship. Ianto is, at that point, still horrified with what Jack's done, and processing it-- but he still goes to his side, holds him, glares bloody daggers at Clem, and holds on to him as he comes back. But really, it's Jack that's clinging on to him. JB's projecting mad vulnerability-- he's clearly the one who needs reassurance at this point. Ianto goes to him as (largely, I think) the loyal soldier, but Jack holds on to him as a lover.

(And yeah, see. This is why it would have been so wonderful to see more of this rare, complex, interesting, fucked up relationship on our screens, paid for by Aunty Beeb.)

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phaetonschariot July 10 2009, 00:52:25 UTC
That's actually a good showing of a mature, secure relationship too, because even when he's mad at Jack, he'll still be right by his side when he's needed, and that probably goes both ways. They "know" that they'll sort things out between them later but that right now is not the time for it. And personally I love that it's subtle. If they declared undying love for each other all time I'd hate it. They're men, they act like men, and it works, so so well.

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pogrebin July 10 2009, 01:01:15 UTC
Yes, definitely on the maturity ( ... )

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phaetonschariot July 10 2009, 01:05:26 UTC
Hell, even at work Ianto sometimes shows up Jack - in KKBB he orders him around, in Meat Jack defers to him in front of Rhys ("Do I show off?" "Just a bit.") Ianto has never been a weepy sub. Never. Ianto follows Jack utterly and completely out of choice and he has gone against his orders/wishes in the past when he thought it was the right thing to do (end of days).

NIGHT.

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pogrebin July 10 2009, 01:06:55 UTC
I'M GOING TO BED NOW, I PROMISE. BUT BEFORE I DO:

Jack: ...I like the philosophy.
Ianto: I gathered.

:DDD

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