OH FANDOM YOU NEVER DISAPPOINT: Game of Thrones edition

[pocochina]

So about five months ago, I had every intention of writing about at least one narrative decision which I love and which fandom hates. And then I got sidetracked from the meme (not sure why, since opening up this document I see that I had several of them either planned or done???) but also, which decision? I've already talked about plenty of roundly

Comments

[pocochina]

This is what I mean about equating moral storytelling to fidelity to the book series. Whether or not she was a beloved character doesn't really have anything to do with to what extent the adaptational decision did or didn't play into gender norms and misogynistic tropes. Beloved characters can be plenty problematic, and socially responsible storytelling can fall flat.

Like, I disagree with all of your other examples? I think Sansa did get in some great subtle acts of resistance, and I think the narrative made a point to centralize her reactions to the abuse even when all she could do was silently stonewall. Show-Sansa is a little bit older, therefore a little bit more mature, therefore more likely to direct her aggression at Joffrey rather than at people who aren't hurting her, but I don't see how that's a negative. I don't believe that Cersei has been "defanged." I don't think that Arya's "most girls are stupid" was meant to endorse the idea that most girls are stupid, I think it was Arya playing to her audience by blustering rather than going on the defensive in front of Tywin, and I think it's a problem with fandom that we care more about that line than the exchange just before it, where Arya calls him out on his erasure of women from history. (Like, I entirely fail see how Tywin (1) being amused and (2) comparing her to Cersei does not equate to a criticism of the viewpoint.) And I think the fact that these complaints have become fandom conventional wisdom means we should consider the possibility that there are issues with our backwards-in-high-heels expectations for female characters at play.

[sakuraberries]

To clarify: there are creative decisions D&D have made that do not sit right with me from a storytelling point of view, creative decisions that I believe have changed characters and story for the worse. And then there are other creative decisions made that I believe to be misogynistic. Those issues exist separately, but occasionally overlap. I completely get what you're saying about conflating these two (i.e. just because something is different from the books does not automatically make it problematic).

So storytelling issues: stuff like...making it so Joffrey gives the order to kill Robert's bastards instead of Cersei, that affects Cersei's character. Or turning Petyr into an idiot who would joke to Cersei about siblings sleeping together. Or having Sansa kneel for Tyrion. Or completely erasing what Jaime and Tywin did to Tysha (half of Tyrion's life has been based on a lie and he and Jaime part as enemies; how is this not considered important? All of Tyrion's fucked up views on women stem from this incident? why exchange all that for a pointless monologue about...was it beetles?). Turning Tyrion into a heroic saint. Robb marrying for love rather than duty. And on and on and on.

And I'm not a book purist - I understand that sometimes the source material has to be adapted differently, and I can get on board if it's adapted for the better (Legend of the Seeker is a great example). But none of this was for the better, imo? And that's just...I guess there's not much point in debating these points because there's no one definition of what makes a good story or character, and what I enjoy might not be something you enjoy, and vice versa (e.g. you think Arianne is a trite character; I think show!Ellaria is the trite character).

Then there's things like having Jaime rape Cersei, explicitly changing her consent to non-consent. Or constantly having naked women and rape just as...background? To make things more edgy? Not that the books are great on this either, but in the show it's even more excessive.

Or something as small as this line of dialogue from Oberyn. I mean, why even change such a small (yet significant) detail? Why make a conscious decision to change that line? How does it make the story better? Idgi.

[pocochina]

I don't really feel like getting sucked into a whole long thing about Why D&D Are The Worst. I disagree with most, though not all, of your premises, but mostly I'm not interested in debating the conclusion.

The one thing I am not willing to let slide is the claim that Jaime did not sexually assault Cersei in the book's version of the altar scene. I understand that this is a very popular view in the more loudly self-righteous corners of fandom and I am sure you heard it from a source that seemed credible, but it is still rape apologism. (see also)