I hear that sometimes fandom reacts to a character doing bad things with a kind of essentialist IT IS BECAUSE THEY WERE BORN EVIL, THEY WERE TRYING TO KICK WHAT THEY THOUGHT WERE PUPPIES IN THE WOMB
lol, FROM TIME TO TIME
partly because Coulson and May and, actually, Ward (!) gave her more leniency and more room to do her own thing than Garret did with Ward,
There's also a big developmental difference, though, between Skye being 25 and Ward having been, what, 16 when Garrett sucked him in? And between having been left to her own devices before that, rather than actively undermined. Like, I do agree with you that Skye is probably worried about that on some level and that's influencing her reaction to Ward, but I'm a little reluctant to compare the characters in that way in understanding them.
both that she can't entirely pin down her values and that she is capable of swapping in different values based on the people she is close to and who seem to offer her lifelines.
She really is as adaptable as Ward.
yes, ACCURATE, Ward has been brainwashed, but in a real-world, many-years-long campaign of emotional manipulation way, rather than some kind of sci-fi laser beam kind of way
Right. And I do get why the characters didn't bring it up - they don't have the resources to worry about him when they're protecting themselves from him, and anyway have no way of knowing Garrett's methods, though I do think Coulson knew Garrett well enough to put two and two together after they captured Ward and had a chance to cool down. (Which, like, even if he wants to go on despising Ward, which is fine, he really should have seen the pragmatic value of understanding what makes the guy tick, rather than UR THE WORST H8 U.) But plain old grooming is seriously powerful.
Which is actually backward, to a degree, because the Ward that Fitz has known has *always* been HYDRA's Ward. If there's a "real Ward" who has none of Garrett's programming, Fitz has never met him.
Yeah, it's an understandable fallacy at work, "I found out Ward was HYDRA yesterday, therefore Ward BECAME HYDRA yesterday."
Yeah, it's a good point that Skye and Ward really are quite far apart in their respective stories. I think there are parallels -- but yeah, Skye is much less groomable because she's older and had to deal with abandonment (or similar) rather than active abuse. Which is damaging in a different way; in spite of her adaptability and love for the team, I think she could turn on Coulson or May easily if they crossed a big line, whereas Ward was trained early on to accept abuse as love, and Garrett is able to be marginally less stingy with the carrot between the stick bouts that he looks like the guy who really cares.
Yeah, it's an understandable fallacy at work, "I found out Ward was HYDRA yesterday, therefore Ward BECAME HYDRA yesterday."
lol forever
I didn't mention it in my initial comments but I especially love your analysis of Skye naming herself after, y'know, The Sky, which I hadn't thought about in depth.
I think she could turn on Coulson or May easily if they crossed a big line
Yes, agreed. Which is of course quite a good thing morally, that she won't ~just follow orders and do things she believes are truly unthinkable. But I can see that being hard for her to accept as a good thing, largely because of her own totally understandable abandonment issues, and so Ward needs to be just a black box of incomprehensible evil for her to get through that discovery.
Skye naming herself after, y'know, The Sky
It's a nice touch to the character. As much as this is totally not necessary for me to be into a protagonist, I really do just like Skye.
lol, FROM TIME TO TIME
partly because Coulson and May and, actually, Ward (!) gave her more leniency and more room to do her own thing than Garret did with Ward,
There's also a big developmental difference, though, between Skye being 25 and Ward having been, what, 16 when Garrett sucked him in? And between having been left to her own devices before that, rather than actively undermined. Like, I do agree with you that Skye is probably worried about that on some level and that's influencing her reaction to Ward, but I'm a little reluctant to compare the characters in that way in understanding them.
both that she can't entirely pin down her values and that she is capable of swapping in different values based on the people she is close to and who seem to offer her lifelines.
She really is as adaptable as Ward.
yes, ACCURATE, Ward has been brainwashed, but in a real-world, many-years-long campaign of emotional manipulation way, rather than some kind of sci-fi laser beam kind of way
Right. And I do get why the characters didn't bring it up - they don't have the resources to worry about him when they're protecting themselves from him, and anyway have no way of knowing Garrett's methods, though I do think Coulson knew Garrett well enough to put two and two together after they captured Ward and had a chance to cool down. (Which, like, even if he wants to go on despising Ward, which is fine, he really should have seen the pragmatic value of understanding what makes the guy tick, rather than UR THE WORST H8 U.) But plain old grooming is seriously powerful.
Which is actually backward, to a degree, because the Ward that Fitz has known has *always* been HYDRA's Ward. If there's a "real Ward" who has none of Garrett's programming, Fitz has never met him.
Yeah, it's an understandable fallacy at work, "I found out Ward was HYDRA yesterday, therefore Ward BECAME HYDRA yesterday."
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Yeah, it's an understandable fallacy at work, "I found out Ward was HYDRA yesterday, therefore Ward BECAME HYDRA yesterday."
lol forever
I didn't mention it in my initial comments but I especially love your analysis of Skye naming herself after, y'know, The Sky, which I hadn't thought about in depth.
Reply
Yes, agreed. Which is of course quite a good thing morally, that she won't ~just follow orders and do things she believes are truly unthinkable. But I can see that being hard for her to accept as a good thing, largely because of her own totally understandable abandonment issues, and so Ward needs to be just a black box of incomprehensible evil for her to get through that discovery.
Skye naming herself after, y'know, The Sky
It's a nice touch to the character. As much as this is totally not necessary for me to be into a protagonist, I really do just like Skye.
Reply
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