in fact, I have watched the pilot. I'm still right.
I read through this post and would like not to let it pass without comment. In the first part of my response I will do my best to explain how Dean’s behavior toward Sam meets a lot of the criteria for intimate partner abuse, because the OP does not seem to grasp the argument we are making. I will assume good faith, though - this is a difficult
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Personally I'm torn (and not least because it's very difficult to think of Dean like this) because I wonder if the mere story telling (i.e. drama) has dictated these abusive characteristics or if TPTB have sat down and said "you know, what we have here is a classic case of an abusive relationship. Let's explore that".
You've made a compelling case (sadly). Sam not looking for Dean last year compounds it of course. He finally got out. It really does make me wonder if Carver genuinely sees this relationship this dark. It makes me extraordinarily sad. I watch this show for their relationship. The one where they work together, they make each other human, they share the crappiness and they appreciate the sacrifices each other has made. The one where they prank each other, share a laugh, a beer and a joke. I've seen many say this relationship is dead. I'm sure the writers don't see it that way (and all Sam needs to do is appreciate and trust Dean and all will be ok) and after reading comments like "Sam needs to be grateful for Dean and he's too harsh on him" make me realise that many fans don't either.
I don't know much about abusive relationships (luckily) but is there a solution where the abuse stops but the partnership survives? Sam and Dean will remain together (as that's the show) but can they do it and get completely out of this rut?
Curious.
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I'm curious to know whether you think the writers have deliberately written Dean has an abusive character? Over the years they have added canon to suggest that John was possibly abusive - certainly neglectful. Do you think they've just added canon over the years that have built up a picture of an abusive person or that they've deliberately set out to make him one?
Authorial intent is slippery, and I don't think I really read enough interviews to go as far as one can with it, so all of this comes with a big HIGHLY SPECULATIVE disclaimer. On top of that, this is the kind of thing that happens slowly and people don't usually notice IRL, otherwise everyone would bail on abusers quickly and with ease, and I think it also got worse and worse over time and the people who lived with Dean in their heads could easily have been lacking in perspective in a similar way.
I think that awareness of Dean's capacity for cruelty, for sadism, was something that everyone involved has been aware of since Kripke was on board. It came across not just on the big stuff - "I tortured souls and I liked it" - but in the mundane, petty ways that nasty people get to be nasty - the glee he takes in the vicious game of dodgeball during the episode at their high school, his contraction of the ghost sickness that only affects alpha-male-wannabe personalities commonly known as "dicks." Then there has been awareness of the unhealthiness of his attitude toward Sam since the beginning, obviously. In the end, though, the maudlin romanticizing of the relationship in that last arc of S5 suggest it's unlikely that anyone with executive authority consciously put two and two together and realized that he was turning those controlling patterns onto Sam in a very RL kind of way.
I do think that Gamble was very well aware of the problem, but was also very well aware of how risky it would be to alienate the viewership by following through on it, and so we saw a lot of "Dean does terribly abusive thing -> narrative gives him a way out so BRUDDERS -> Dean seizes the opportunity to do another terribly abusive thing." His beating of Soulless, his obstructionism to Sam getting his soul back until it would be a violation of Sam's autonomy, the gaslighting of the wall, the gaslighting over Amy, the bullying about Hallucifer - it happened too frequently and too brutally to be an accident.
So moving up to the real question of how consciously this storyline is happening! I don't know if I'm actually remembering this from an interview or just making it up, but I think I remember Carver saying at some point that he mainlined S6&7 when he made the decision to come back to and take over the show. I tend to believe it, precisely because of the way things have unfolded since he took over. People who have been watching the show from week to week (because again, problems happen gradually) seem likely to have a very different take on the show than those of us who caught up relatively recently. It's much easier to miss a pattern that's repeating from last April than the one you saw both take place and be "resolved" last Saturday. So...I don't know who would use what precise wording when, per se, but I do think this group of writers are the most clear-eyed about the power dynamic between Sam and Dean, and the most committed to actually working through it.
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The one where they work together, they make each other human, they share the crappiness and they appreciate the sacrifices each other has made. The one where they prank each other, share a laugh, a beer and a joke. I've seen many say this relationship is dead.
I don't think it's dead, so much as I think we're finally acknowledging that it wasn't what it looked like. It wasn't an equal give-and-take partnership. It's just that the power imbalance was buried - Dean wants to hunt, Sam doesn't want to hunt, the show is about hunting so we take it as a given that Dean will get his way 100%. Dean really didn't appreciate the sacrifices Sam has made, not nearly so much as Sam has made a point to appreciate him, but nobody articulates that point so it skates by the audience. Sam is always `~learning some lesson~ about the relationship between John and Dean, while Dean still refuses to acknowledge that John was extremely abusive to Sam as well - and people still take Dean's skewed POV as evidence that John objectively was a loving parent to Sam so there is nothing to learn there. Which isn't to say it was always abusive, because I don't think it was, so much as when certain power imbalances are accepted as a just and viable status quo, it's dangerously easy for abusive patterns to take root. If they're going to fix things, if they're going to make their relationship what they've (and we've) wanted to believe it was, that's a restructuring, not a return.
I don't know much about abusive relationships (luckily) but is there a solution where the abuse stops but the partnership survives? Sam and Dean will remain together (as that's the show) but can they do it and get completely out of this rut?
This is a really tough question. I mean, we are talking about choices here, not "hardwiring" or compulsion or any such, so Dean can stop. He can change. It's hard, but he could. My big reservation is that this is a really hard storyline to execute responsibly: "He'll change if he ~really loves you~ but only after you self-harm badly enough to get his attention and then you are a Good Victim who stands up just enough to one of his stunts, blah blah blah".....that's a fine needle to thread.
That said, I think there is an argument that this is what the Mark of Cain storyline is all about. I don't know how much this is a conscious choice or similar things subconsciously playing out at the same time or if parallel will fall apart by the time we're seeing opening credits tomorrow night BUT I can make an argument today. In the earlier episodes of the season, what was striking to me about Dean's behavior was not that he was doing what he was doing, but that he was so conscious of and unsettled by it. Then he got caught, Sam has actually done a bit to hold him accountable for the first time, and he hasn't been able to turn it back around on Sam. Around the time Dean has had to start sitting with his own conscience, he gets physically, visibly, branded by Cain. What I think it's setting up is the "can Dean change?" storyline being represented by the "can they lift the mark?" result of the mytharc. Cain is still branded, still cursed, because he's STILL making excuses for having killed his brother. Dean's behavior *is* killing Sam now, has almost killed Sam more than once, and I think he's seeing that, feeling that for the first time with the Mark. That's a necessary first step. It's not sufficient for change on its own, but it is necessary.
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I would like to think that they have set up this elaborate story line this explore the nature of their relationship. It's incredibly deep though and I'm not really sure they are that capable. I mean, I'd love to think they are, but exploring an abusive sibling relationship probably isn't on their agenda. I'd like to be wrong, but considering the fact that I've not seen that many supportive comments for Sam (after the last episode) the message that Dean is abusive isn't coming across (though, it works much much better that it's not so obvious - a slow reveal is much more realistic - and damn painful!).
And I suppose victims can often be blamed. I myself have been caught thinking (in RL) "why doesn't she just leave him - obviously very weak" when hearing about someone who'd being abused (until I learned some truths about what it means to be in an abusive relationship). Dean is such a "glowing", heroic, character that we can only see his hurt in all this (it's got me so down recently - it's like Sam's only thing to do now is to thank Dean for saving him and fall back into line. :(( )
Last query. Dean's says he's poison. I figure he's meaning that people around him die (or "worse" he says referring to Sam). I wonder if this means he's beginning to acknowledge his pattern of abuse - or his nature? Or is it mostly just him thinking he's cursed and what happens to him (and around him) is out of his control? (you don't need to answer that. I'm just pondering stuff).
And also, I feel that Dean does deserve some sympathy. He has been created like this (from his upbringing and extraordinary life etc) and I genuinely feel that he wants to do the right thing by Sam and others that he loves - he just doesn't know how. He feels enormous remorse (and I can't help but think abusers generally don't? - though I may be wrong). I'm not defending or supporting him - I just think there are many layers in looking at the way in which Dean has been written and created. He's suffered too (and I know that's not an excuse for behaviours), but I think it helps to not end up hating a character that is amazing on many levels and has been loved for many years.
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Last query. Dean's says he's poison. I figure he's meaning that people around him die (or "worse" he says referring to Sam). I wonder if this means he's beginning to acknowledge his pattern of abuse - or his nature? Or is it mostly just him thinking he's cursed and what happens to him (and around him) is out of his control? (you don't need to answer that. I'm just pondering stuff).
My 2 cents on that is that there's a big difference between "I AM X" and "I DID X." You know? If Dean IS poison, then he can't be held morally accountable. It's still an attempt to get Sam to blame the universe and not him.
And also, I feel that Dean does deserve some sympathy. He has been created like this (from his upbringing and extraordinary life etc) and I genuinely feel that he wants to do the right thing by Sam and others that he loves - he just doesn't know how.
I mean, I don't think that's unreasonable? It's not that people who do bad things become instantly unsympathetic. I think SPN does a really good job with this, actually. I have sympathy for Crowley and the archangels and Ruby and everyone, all the way down. I....cannot really afford to sympathize with Dean at this point, because this (obviously) touches a nerve with me, but I don't think he ought to be unsympathetic to everyone. It's just that fandom right now likes to use that sympathy as an argument that not only is he entitled to inflict pain on Sam, but he's not actually abusing Sam, and that is what bothers me.
He feels enormous remorse (and I can't help but think abusers generally don't? - though I may be wrong).
It'd be....easier in some ways if all abusers were sociopaths and other deviants who are incapable of remorse, I think. Sadly, that's not the case.
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I don't think it's dead, so much as I think we're finally acknowledging that it wasn't what it looked like. It wasn't an equal give-and-take partnership.
It was never an equal partnership. Dean's put-downs of Sam have been there since the pilot and as you so aptly pointed out have gotten progressively worse.
I do think Dean learned it from John but he can't use that excuse any longer. He's an adult or should be.
His lack of self-worth is not Sam's fault but John's. Sam's lack of self-worth is due primarily to Dean although John has some culpability. That said, people still have free will and can change how they act. They just have to want to. Dean's not there yet. I hope the Mark helps him get there.
I see a few more people on other sites starting to get it. It's, however, a slow process and I hope the writers make it more clear with time so that it becomes harder for the Dean stans to deny what he's been doing.
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Or even if we saw him try. He hasn't. He's wallowed, and decided that his miserable feelings count because, um, because! and kept right on being abusive.
I see a few more people on other sites starting to get it. It's, however, a slow process and I hope the writers make it more clear with time so that it becomes harder for the Dean stans to deny what he's been doing.
Yes! I'm seeing a lot of people frustrated at the show because only some of fandom gets it? But from where I sit....OMG PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO GET IT, HALLELUJAH, WELL DONE S9!
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