.....but FREEDOM!!!!

[pocochina]

We talk a lot about the ability of fictional characters to make choices freely. This is good, of course, but sometimes these conversations trip up on the fact that there are a lot of types of/aspects to freedom, and therefore, a lot of ways to be constrained. So I want to talk about the connotations of some words and phrases related to choice and

Comments

[local_max]

Yay, yes.

You know, re: the Xander/Wes example, I want to clarify that I understand some of the impulse behind people pointing out that some real bad stuff was exposed in Xander/Wes, because I think the episodes are about some darkness that is really within them being brought out. But, oh yeah, roofie. Like, The Pack especially shows us the dark side of Xander's worship of Buffy's strength and desire to be part of the in crowd, and "maybe" the thing we should take from that is to use it as commentary/foreshadowing on the way Xander actually plays status games within the group later on, in much more ambiguous ways, rather than he's an attempted rapist how dare the show not acknowledge this enough! when he's been roofied. Similarly, Billy gives some clue about the differences in Wesley and Gunn's dark sides -- Gunn flies off the handle, Wesley simmers and seethes -- but that information is maybe useful for later episodes rather than, you know, this one.

I feel like with the "magical influence" re: Willow, I think the common insistence that ANY MAGICAL INFLUENCE MEANS THAT HER ARC IS RUINED sort of frustratingly set, well, me back for quite a time, because I think I still have this fear that admitting any particular external influence will be proof that her story sucks forever, which, you know, some of that is just my thin-skinned attitude toward criticism of anything I like, but still. I actually kind of admit that I don't have a conclusive answer about how light/dark magic works or any of that stuff, but think it mostly comes down to "the use of magic runs on and reinforces emotions," hence why "emotional control" is flagged as the big issue back in the teaser to "Doppelgangland." I feel kind of embarrassed actually that I don't have a conclusive answer, but I think some of that is that the big NO MYSTICAL INFLUENCE OR EVERYTHING IS RUINED element of discourse that makes it hard to interrogate it directly.

[pocochina]

The Pack especially shows us the dark side of Xander's worship of Buffy's strength and desire to be part of the in crowd, and "maybe" the thing we should take from that is to use it as commentary/foreshadowing on the way Xander actually plays status games within the group later on, in much more ambiguous ways, rather than he's an attempted rapist how dare the show not acknowledge this enough! when he's been roofied

Perfectly said, yeah.

Billy gives some clue about the differences in Wesley and Gunn's dark sides -- Gunn flies off the handle, Wesley simmers and seethes -- but that information is maybe useful for later episodes rather than, you know, this one.

YES, exactly. I think it goes to illustrate how the ways in which they would go dark are the ways in which they are usually heroic. Gunn is decisive and straightforward; Wesley withdraws and intellectualizes. Those are just traits, neither inherently good nor bad.

it mostly comes down to "the use of magic runs on and reinforces emotions," hence why "emotional control" is flagged as the big issue back in the teaser to "Doppelgangland." I feel kind of embarrassed actually that I don't have a conclusive answer, but I think some of that is that the big NO MYSTICAL INFLUENCE OR EVERYTHING IS RUINED element of discourse that makes it hard to interrogate it directly.

Yeah, there's this strange idea that ABSOLUTE AND UNQUESTIONABLE CULPABILITY is somehow the only RIGHT way to tell a story. And I really disagree with that, naturally. I think Willow's questioning of her own level of culpability and maximizing her ability to turn that around and use her agency for good is a perfectly valid story. Not quite as pat as an Aesop's fable, maybe, but far more true to life and IMO more interesting.

[sunclouds33]

Call me biased but I regard Wes's Billy thing and Xander's Hyena's thing as on the same level as Willow and Xander as vampires in the Wishverse. Oh, so this is how it would be if their personalities were twisted and misshapen if some demonic force was squelching their conscience and soul. GOOD TO KNOW.

In that respect, I do evaluate Billy and The Pack as one-offs that don't condemn Xander and Wes. I'll admit that I'm significantly harsher on how Angelus and unsouled!Spike regulate their perceptions of their characters because the demon is always with them. The demon is also why they're still alive, super-strong, get prophecies written about them, compete over who's the biggest Champion, their origin story and excuse for being bad, blah bliddy blah. Yes, I regard Angelus as more of a stain on Angelus than Billfiied!Wesely as a stain on Wesley. That's part of the price of the fact that Rogue Demon Hunter Angel of City Of gets to wander into LA with no plan but to just...kill demons and redeem himself is treated like the Most Significant Threat to Evil in LA right off the bat while Rogue Demon Hunter Wesley is treated like a joke. Angel can thank the demon animating his corpse.