a response to responses to criticisms of Dean throughout S9

[pocochina]

In numerous meta communities, I've seen conversations of S9 which strike me as incomplete about some very important dimensions to the season, and I'd like to respond.

Comments

[jensenrick]

Thank you for this. I've been ever more unhappy with what Dean has been doing, but unable to contextualize why; as I was still grateful that Sam was alive (and hopefully being healed) - but you have put it into words better than I could have.

[pocochina]

Yeah, it's like...I'm not unhappy to see Sam surviving and getting better, even some angelic tweaks to his brain chemistry might not be the worst thing in the world for him at this point, but all of that needs to happen on Sam's terms or not at all, otherwise it's just more of Sam being exploited by some super or another, this time with Dean aiding and abetting (and being quite nasty about it, to boot).

[killabeez]

All of that, plus it's Dean being stupid, which I find frustrating and unengaging in itself.

[pocochina]

I mean, I don't so much have frustrations with it as a dumb tactical choice? Like, I think he was behaving very consistently as (a) someone who knew he was doing something wrong and didn't want to get caught and (b) someone who was very afraid of...what ended up happening, where he has it thrown in his face just how far out of his control the whole situation is (as when he finally tried to come clean and Gadreel threatened him) and something awful and irreversible happens because of it. People are, as a rule, very bad at being rational, even people who aren't nearly as fucked up as Dean. I just don't think we should be glossing over the emotional consequences for Sam in order to be all "Dean did it out of ~~~love Y U HATIN."

[killabeez]

Yes,this! You can still do things for ALL the right reasons and still have your behaviour be wrong and everything he has done is still wrong, no matter how much he loves Sam.

Thanks, btw, for putting this all in context. "Gaslighting" is the perfect word.I wasn't upset quite so much with the initial choice to aid the posession but I would seriously love to give Dean a little smack for eveything he's done afterward .

[pocochina]

Yeah, exactly. I think, maybe a little more precisely for myself, that it was something that started for all the right reasons and continued for all the wrong reasons? So obviously the behavior took a turn for the worse. I really do believe that the main motivation in the hospital was wanting Sam to survive.* But since then, it's become about control. Because that's been his whole thing, right? "Sam NEEDS my protection; the world NEEDS my protection from him." And then Sam showed that he was willing and able to do the trials - Sam is strong enough and good enough to stand on his own two feet, not that anyone should NEED to prove those two things to have autonomy because that is a right and not a privilege, but S8 pushed Dean to a place where he couldn't deny those things about Sam anymore, and stripped him of his denial about how badly his controlling behavior fucks with Sam. And I think keeping the possession a secret is him trying to recapture those feelings of "I'm in charge here, Sam needs me to make these decisions" - and he's

[erivar]

Well stated. Fandom's opinion and general interest in defending Dean's decision because he can do no wrong doesn't bother me. What will bother me is if the narrative doesn't address the problematic aspects of Dean's behavior post possession or chooses to paint it in the same light as fandom. I'm holding out hope that the narrative deals with it and Dean faces consequences for it beyond just feeling guilty. If the narrative excuses it and doesn't deal with it, then it does the story and the brothers a great disservice. I enjoy drama. They've set the foundation for things to come crashing down and for Dean and the brothers to learn, grow, examine their relationship and all that jazz. They just need to follow through.

[pocochina]

Yeah, I think all of this has happened so methodically that I anticipate it will be followed through on, and I'm really glad about that. It's a lot of the frustrations I've had with Dean coming to a head and it just is so much *easier* to watch the show when I'm sure it's all "yes, we see this, you are meant to see it too, this is a PROBLEM."

I'm holding out hope that the narrative deals with it and Dean faces consequences for it beyond just feeling guilty.I've been saying all season that I'm trying not to get too hung up on Dean getting some type of external justice or other because...usually there isn't any, you know? Sometimes people get away with shit, and people who have pulled the kind of crap Dean has are generally very good at getting away with it. But now, if nothing else, he has a body on his hands and he's going to have to fess up to someone, which he's been dodging frantically for a while now

[percysowner]

Although I understand your not needing Dean to get external consequences, I want someone, anyone who is an accepted good person and an established character to tell Dean what he did was wrong. I do not want Ellen speaking from beyond the grave telling Dean what a special snowflake he is, as she did in The Mentalists. I do not want this to be blown off as a simple "dick move" the way Charlie blew off the fake message in LARP. Cas would be my choice, but I'll settle for a non-dead Linda Tran pointing out that she doesn't CARE that Gad saved Cas and Charlie, he murdered her son because Dean decided to play God. I would take Amelia showing up and reaming out Dean, although fandom thinks so little of her that her defending Sam would probably work to make Dean sympathetic. Kevin or Bobby returning as ghosts, Death paying Dean a visit. Just ONE person telling Dean he was wrong and that no, he isn't the bestest brother in the world

[pocochina]

I want someone, anyone who is an accepted good person and an established character to tell Dean what he did was wrong.

AAAAAAH I WOULD LOVE IT. I'm trying really hard to control expectations but I WOULD LOVE IT. Because yeah, it says a lot that even with something so relatively mild as "dick move" Charlie is one of an exceptionally small number of characters - perhaps the only character - in that she's told Dean he did something wrong and didn't soft-pedal it with a lot of ~~you just don't love yourself enough~~ backdoor non-flaws.

And yeah, the episode leaned so hard on Dean's fear of saying the actual words that I actually started to wonder if there was an eventual come-to-Jesus talk being set up to come from CAS of all people?!? Like, Cas could give him the exact same "if you thought you had to do it why'd you keep it a secret from me?" lecture Dean gave him in S6, and frankly have it be a lot more persuasive. ("Why didn't you involve ME in your heavenly insurrection I WOULD HAVE BEEN SO USEFUL IN THAT SITUATION" lol Dean.) And

[percysowner]

I agree that Linda Tran is not my default person in this because it takes the focus off Sam and puts it on Kevin. I would like her as a secondary back up, because I'm already seeing the devaluation of Kevin as an excuse for Dean's actions. The chorus of "but Gad saved Cas and Charlie so doesn't that balance Kevin out?" just bugs, as does the "maybe Gad will do something good so that we will see that Kevin was a necessary sacrifice" excusors. It's not even the victim blaming, it's the outright defense of the abuser that blows my mind.

(That, or a chipper "well fuck it, I like being alive and having an angel owe me!" WILL NEVER HAPPEN BUT HAHAHAHA.)As a resolution of Sam's abuse it would be great. On a fandom meta level (and on a Dean POV level) it would lead to Dean wasn't wrong because he violated Sam's will, Dean was wrong because Sam has once again let power go to his head. Sam loves being able to smite people just like with the demon blood and poor, sad martyr Dean must stop his angel powered brother who does bad things and

[pocochina]

I agree that Linda Tran is not my default person in this because it takes the focus off Sam and puts it on Kevin. I would like her as a secondary back up, because I'm already seeing the devaluation of Kevin as an excuse for Dean's actions.

Yeah, I would totally like for her to be alive and to get her say, for sure. I just don't want her to be the only voice against the whole thing.

The chorus of "but Gad saved Cas and Charlie so doesn't that balance Kevin out?" just bugsThis does kind of make Cas an even more attractive candidate for Jiminy Cricket. "Yeah I'm alive BUT THIS WAS STILL A BAD IDEA." Though I feel a little bad wishing the burden of *being Dean's conscience* on anyone, even a character I'm significantly less attached to than my bby Cas

[morgana_st]

Jodie. Jodie could be the Voice of Reason. She's in a position of authority, she speaks truth to the guys, and she's actually a friend to Sam. (Who else has been seen as primarily a friend of Sam's?)

[pocochina]

She's a possibility, for sure! I'm wondering how that would go over so soon after 9x8, when she pressed the party line of "YOU AND DEAN, BETTER THAN CHURCH, SO MUCH LOVE, BLAH BLAH BLAH" and was totally oblivious to Sam's really uncomfortable face there? When clearly Sam's relationship with Dean has not been much of a "comfort" to him lately, and her informing him that it was (as kindly meant as it may have been) really did not help him get his head screwed on right about Dean consistently telling him that up is down