I'm halfway through season five of The Wire, but yeah. One of the things that I find interesting is the way the (SPOILER) Clay Davis stuff is playing out, because I think it's pretty clear that Davis is just the most extreme form of the central problem, and not exactly a guy who invented political corruption.
It's interesting that the only person on BSG who actually seems to really like politics is Zarek. Well, actually, Lee kind of seems to like it, too, and I get the impression Felix would have liked it under different circumstances. Roslin is amazing, but she is pretty disinterested in the political scene, and I think that this does actually come across in some failings -- like, her increasing disinterest in dealing with the press.
OMG THE ENDING TO SEASON SIX FOR DON. I am really excited about what the next season entails for him. I kind of agree that Don will probably never become a "good person," but I think that in a lot of ways that is not really the point? I mean, one thing that I think is really important is that in an imperfect world, where options for actually being a decent person are actually sometimes not always all that clear, finding a way to find peace with yourself and not to put other people down is *itself* a worthwhile goal, and I think Don is making real progress on that.
In general, I think that what is going on with Don probably goes into what I think a lot of the conversation about antiheroes misses, which is that I think people, even "bad people," have a right to exist. For Don to become a real boy is not something he has to earn by good works. It would be great if he did, but that's not really the point, and in his case the things that screwed him up for life were not actually his fault, even if it probably wouldn't matter if it was. Don becoming a real boy is the thing that will allow him to start being a good father to Sally and Bobby and Eugene, to help Ted avoid ruining his life in Don-like ways, to get out of the race to the top that makes him especially dangerous, etc. And it'll make him happier. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what statements I'm talking about, I think I'm maybe more arguing with my past self here, but I think there is an attitude that we should give up on people who are "bad people," but, like, that's wrong for several reasons.
I think it's pretty clear that Davis is just the most extreme form of the central problem, and not exactly a guy who invented political corruption.
Yes! I liked the Davis thing a lot too. I don't even...possibly this is my own cynicism showing, but whatever...I didn't feel like he was even particularly extreme? He just has the brassest set of balls, and so he is more openly and personally involved than one would usually expect.
It's interesting that the only person on BSG who actually seems to really like politics is Zarek. Well, actually, Lee kind of seems to like it, too, and I get the impression Felix would have liked it under different circumstances.
Felix! You're right, too, he would've been a world-class policy wonk.
But yeah, the thing about Zarek and arguably Lee is interesting but also emblematic of the problem, in some ways. Like, I think Lee did like politics, but was also very conscious that he was supposed to hold himself ~~above political conflict, and I think that really warped his decision-making in ways that most viewers reacted to as being morally good because ugh politics dirty even though they were almost always a lot less effective than they could be, and were often quite ill-considered. Let's have a truce because choosing a different path starting trust somewhere! And not because we'll all die otherwise! Wait, people are going to hate implementing the truce! Blah, blah.
Zarek, though...it was okay, expected even, for Zarek to like politics, because he's a Bad Guy! and if bad guys like anything, they like politics. But, you know, someone who gets caught running around blowing things up is very likely to be too impulsive and rigid to have much skill or enjoyment for the political game. I bought it as a part of Zarek's characterization that he was this kind of odd bird, I think he worked as a character with internal logic, but in context I did find that troubling.
Roslin is amazing, but she is pretty disinterested in the political scene, and I think that this does actually come across in some failings -- like, her increasing disinterest in dealing with the press.
Yeah, I think Laura and Lee have the same problem here, to different degrees, in that they are very, very uncomfortable presenting themselves for the direct approval (or not) of others. I sympathize with that, probably too much, but it does make them very uncomfortable with the aspects of politics that make democracy the worst form of government except for all the others: in order for the people to make a decision about their leadership, the people do need to be able to evaluate their leadership, and political actors who may be very good at making decisions are not necessarily people who are good at being evaluated. That's a problem that I think was observed and replicated very well in the show, but then normativized in some kind of arbitrary ways? I think by the show, but maybe by the viewers. Roslin disliking that scrutiny meant that she hated democracy and was autocratic (lol); Lee disliking that scrutiny meant that he was ~too good~ to care about political opinion.
people, even "bad people," have a right to exist. For Don to become a real boy is not something he has to earn by good works. It would be great if he did, but that's not really the point, and in his case the things that screwed him up for life were not actually his fault, even if it probably wouldn't matter if it was
This THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS.
I think there is an attitude that we should give up on people who are "bad people," but, like, that's wrong for several reasons.
Yeah, exactly. We might not all live in glass houses, but we do all have more than enough windows.
OMG THE ENDING TO SEASON SIX FOR DON. I am really excited about what the next season entails for him. I kind of agree that Don will probably never become a "good person," but I think that in a lot of ways that is not really the point? I mean, one thing that I think is really important is that in an imperfect world, where options for actually being a decent person are actually sometimes not always all that clear, finding a way to find peace with yourself and not to put other people down is *itself* a worthwhile goal, and I think Don is making real progress on that.
Great point. I loved the end of S6 for Don, after being disappointed by S5. I'm way more sympathetic to Don than I oughta be! I think he needed the shake-up of being way too honest in his pitch to Hershey and getting booted out SC 2.0 to make a change. IMO, Don's whole process of breaking out poverty and abuse and the Korean War demanded artifice, coldness, a lack of fidelity to family. mendaciousness and ambition on steroids. If Don was a little more honest, a little more patriotic, a little concerned with his family and forgiving on him, he'd still be Dick Whitman on the farm. If Don had scruples about how to work his way into business, he never would have gotten Roger drunk and fooled Roger into believing that Roger hired him.
I mean, maybe there was some way that Don could have served out his time in the Korean War and made it to success honestly while still being a good brother to Adam. However, I really didn't see those opportunities at hand. There are some good "Person secretly escapes dirt-poor, abusive childhood home and never looks back and becomes rich and good and wonderful and lives happily ever after because they always do the right thing now that they're free and they totally forgot their crappy family still living on the wrong side of tracks!" And despite my sarcasm, some of those stories do reflect a reality. However, there really weren't enough stories about someone who secretly escapes a poor, abusive home who attains prosperity and respectability....but constantly screws up everyone around them in the new respectable life because they're still pursuing their secret, anti-family, underhanded, cold methods that allowed them to escape and forget their flesh and blood.
A lot of Don's problem boils down to the fact that he keeps swimming like a hyper-active shark to get more, more, more- more sex, more money, more booze, more. And that was OK when he was an underdog and he wasn't in the position to hurt anyone innocent, save Adam or maybe the johns of the whorehouse that he was instructed to pick-pocket. However, the rules should have changed when Don became Top Dog and acquired a whole mess'o'people that rely on Don for fidelity and kindness, be they employees or family. And people that think they're dealing with their father (Don's kids) or a mentor (Joan and Peggy) or an ally and friend (Lane Pryce, Roger). However, a shark doesn't change his fins just like that particularly when he's swimming in a tank of sharks from Roger to Bert to Pete.
Having to take a leave of absence and hitting rock bottom in Sally's eyes forces Don to stop swimming as a shark for a little bit and maybe self-examine a little. So, far it looks like it's working. However, I can get a little sentimental about Don. I was badly burned when I thought there he was making substantial improvements when he was dating Faye Miller. So, I'm keeping it a little at arms length.
And this has been a long comment. I had feelings....No need to respond to all of my word vomit if you don't want.
YES, exactly! Don is a creature of his own inner aptitudes, and that is precisely the problem for everyone around him. And yet...I really felt for him by the end of S6, because for once he was the one spiraling.
Yay feelings! I want to respond more but I'm pretty tired, and might not get back to it. But I really like all this. MM is a show I love but haven't rewatched enough to form the strong set of opinions and meta-y thoughts that I have about other things, but somehow the end of s6 really made things click into place emotionally. I really love the shark analogy a lot.
(And given that you've made Willow/Don comparisons before, I think that's another place where I think they overlap; I think there is a kind of...desperate need to be doing things, constantly striving for better, which goes beyond simple ambition into something that is compulsive, like the dialogue with Oz over her overactive thinking and how only sex shuts it off, which is why some of the moments I have the most love for her are the moments where she does let go, even though I also love that ambition/compulsion -- I guess to continue with the random Oz theme the way she just drops the revenge spell and the flasks all go crashing down is a huge moment, because she's making the braver, more difficult choice to not be doing something. Which I think fits with what you've said about Don finding the implied rest suggested by his position on the couch. I think Don especially really closely associates rest of any kind with death, hence the fact that he can usually only get rest by pushing himself past his limit, drugging himself with alcohol or pushing himself past the limit of physical exertion with sex and impossibly long hours, because he wants to rest but he struggles with the kind of sense of security required to sleep fully expecting to wake up rejuvenated, that one can let things be for a time and then they'll still be there when he wakes up.)
I think Don especially really closely associates rest of any kind with death, hence the fact that he can usually only get rest by pushing himself past his limit, drugging himself with alcohol or pushing himself past the limit of physical exertion with sex and impossibly long hours
Absolutely. One of my favorite Don speeches and frankly, TV speeches every- "You're born alone and you die alone and this world just drops a bunch of rules on top of you to make you forget those facts. But I never forget. I'm living like there's no tomorrow, because there isn't one."
Don lies with the truth. (per our AtS conversations). However, Don generally reveals parts of himself even though his speech was intended as a smooth suave come-on to make Rachel Menken believe that he's a single guy that truly likes her to get her business, her affection and eventually, sex from her. Nope, Don isn't alone. He has a wife and kids that he's ignoring- but yet, he *is* alone inside and he *is* living like there's no tomorrow because he expects the bottom to drop out of his life any day. It makes him very dangerous. Don really believes what he's selling because it does have a bit of important truth to it even though the most salient points that have a pragmatic effect on other's lives are pure manipulative bullshit. Like, from the same ep- Don *does* think that it's comforting to refer to tobacco as "toasted" and it does give a downhome feeling that whatever you're doing is "Ok". Just, pay no attention to the cancer, heart disease, increased likelihood of strokes behind the curtain of cigarettes!
I agree that Willow has a similar compulsive ambition- to achieve more success, to escape whatever her past life was, and hedonistic pleasure. It's multi-dimensional ambition instead of someone like Peggy who is really pretty much just focused on life achievements. Peggy doesn't have the same loathing of her past self. She wants more out of life than her mother represents/wants but Peggy doesn't really loathe or feel ashamed of her background or especially herself for having such a background. Peggy is a sexual person but she's not as focused on it as Don especially or Willow. Peggy socially drinks or smokes weed; she would have no interest in Don's series of benders or Willow's inclination to do magic to get more and more pleasure.
Although, Willow frequently holds herself back on the excesses of ambition for achievements and hedonism or re-directs her ambition to a good place because Willow loves her friends and SO's deeply and wants to do right by the world. Don doesn't feel anywhere near as much duty or compulsion to be good or love for others so Don's ambition is unrestrained. Also, by S1, Don made it to a world perfectly engineered for his white, wealthy, executive male self to rule and proudly display his ambition for achievements and hedonism. (To an extent, he can't show off to his wife how much he wants to sleep with other women or anyone how much he craves drugs and alcohol or anyone the childhood root of his craving for more and more.) Willow, on the other hand, needs to hide her ambition and power to retain her acceptance in the Scooby gang or the rather provincial Sunnydale community.
It's interesting that the only person on BSG who actually seems to really like politics is Zarek. Well, actually, Lee kind of seems to like it, too, and I get the impression Felix would have liked it under different circumstances. Roslin is amazing, but she is pretty disinterested in the political scene, and I think that this does actually come across in some failings -- like, her increasing disinterest in dealing with the press.
OMG THE ENDING TO SEASON SIX FOR DON. I am really excited about what the next season entails for him. I kind of agree that Don will probably never become a "good person," but I think that in a lot of ways that is not really the point? I mean, one thing that I think is really important is that in an imperfect world, where options for actually being a decent person are actually sometimes not always all that clear, finding a way to find peace with yourself and not to put other people down is *itself* a worthwhile goal, and I think Don is making real progress on that.
In general, I think that what is going on with Don probably goes into what I think a lot of the conversation about antiheroes misses, which is that I think people, even "bad people," have a right to exist. For Don to become a real boy is not something he has to earn by good works. It would be great if he did, but that's not really the point, and in his case the things that screwed him up for life were not actually his fault, even if it probably wouldn't matter if it was. Don becoming a real boy is the thing that will allow him to start being a good father to Sally and Bobby and Eugene, to help Ted avoid ruining his life in Don-like ways, to get out of the race to the top that makes him especially dangerous, etc. And it'll make him happier. I mean, I'm not sure exactly what statements I'm talking about, I think I'm maybe more arguing with my past self here, but I think there is an attitude that we should give up on people who are "bad people," but, like, that's wrong for several reasons.
Reply
Yes! I liked the Davis thing a lot too. I don't even...possibly this is my own cynicism showing, but whatever...I didn't feel like he was even particularly extreme? He just has the brassest set of balls, and so he is more openly and personally involved than one would usually expect.
It's interesting that the only person on BSG who actually seems to really like politics is Zarek. Well, actually, Lee kind of seems to like it, too, and I get the impression Felix would have liked it under different circumstances.
Felix! You're right, too, he would've been a world-class policy wonk.
But yeah, the thing about Zarek and arguably Lee is interesting but also emblematic of the problem, in some ways. Like, I think Lee did like politics, but was also very conscious that he was supposed to hold himself ~~above political conflict, and I think that really warped his decision-making in ways that most viewers reacted to as being morally good because ugh politics dirty even though they were almost always a lot less effective than they could be, and were often quite ill-considered. Let's have a truce because choosing a different path starting trust somewhere! And not because we'll all die otherwise! Wait, people are going to hate implementing the truce! Blah, blah.
Zarek, though...it was okay, expected even, for Zarek to like politics, because he's a Bad Guy! and if bad guys like anything, they like politics. But, you know, someone who gets caught running around blowing things up is very likely to be too impulsive and rigid to have much skill or enjoyment for the political game. I bought it as a part of Zarek's characterization that he was this kind of odd bird, I think he worked as a character with internal logic, but in context I did find that troubling.
Roslin is amazing, but she is pretty disinterested in the political scene, and I think that this does actually come across in some failings -- like, her increasing disinterest in dealing with the press.
Yeah, I think Laura and Lee have the same problem here, to different degrees, in that they are very, very uncomfortable presenting themselves for the direct approval (or not) of others. I sympathize with that, probably too much, but it does make them very uncomfortable with the aspects of politics that make democracy the worst form of government except for all the others: in order for the people to make a decision about their leadership, the people do need to be able to evaluate their leadership, and political actors who may be very good at making decisions are not necessarily people who are good at being evaluated. That's a problem that I think was observed and replicated very well in the show, but then normativized in some kind of arbitrary ways? I think by the show, but maybe by the viewers. Roslin disliking that scrutiny meant that she hated democracy and was autocratic (lol); Lee disliking that scrutiny meant that he was ~too good~ to care about political opinion.
people, even "bad people," have a right to exist. For Don to become a real boy is not something he has to earn by good works. It would be great if he did, but that's not really the point, and in his case the things that screwed him up for life were not actually his fault, even if it probably wouldn't matter if it was
This THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS.
I think there is an attitude that we should give up on people who are "bad people," but, like, that's wrong for several reasons.
Yeah, exactly. We might not all live in glass houses, but we do all have more than enough windows.
Reply
Great point. I loved the end of S6 for Don, after being disappointed by S5. I'm way more sympathetic to Don than I oughta be! I think he needed the shake-up of being way too honest in his pitch to Hershey and getting booted out SC 2.0 to make a change. IMO, Don's whole process of breaking out poverty and abuse and the Korean War demanded artifice, coldness, a lack of fidelity to family. mendaciousness and ambition on steroids. If Don was a little more honest, a little more patriotic, a little concerned with his family and forgiving on him, he'd still be Dick Whitman on the farm. If Don had scruples about how to work his way into business, he never would have gotten Roger drunk and fooled Roger into believing that Roger hired him.
I mean, maybe there was some way that Don could have served out his time in the Korean War and made it to success honestly while still being a good brother to Adam. However, I really didn't see those opportunities at hand. There are some good "Person secretly escapes dirt-poor, abusive childhood home and never looks back and becomes rich and good and wonderful and lives happily ever after because they always do the right thing now that they're free and they totally forgot their crappy family still living on the wrong side of tracks!" And despite my sarcasm, some of those stories do reflect a reality. However, there really weren't enough stories about someone who secretly escapes a poor, abusive home who attains prosperity and respectability....but constantly screws up everyone around them in the new respectable life because they're still pursuing their secret, anti-family, underhanded, cold methods that allowed them to escape and forget their flesh and blood.
A lot of Don's problem boils down to the fact that he keeps swimming like a hyper-active shark to get more, more, more- more sex, more money, more booze, more. And that was OK when he was an underdog and he wasn't in the position to hurt anyone innocent, save Adam or maybe the johns of the whorehouse that he was instructed to pick-pocket. However, the rules should have changed when Don became Top Dog and acquired a whole mess'o'people that rely on Don for fidelity and kindness, be they employees or family. And people that think they're dealing with their father (Don's kids) or a mentor (Joan and Peggy) or an ally and friend (Lane Pryce, Roger). However, a shark doesn't change his fins just like that particularly when he's swimming in a tank of sharks from Roger to Bert to Pete.
Having to take a leave of absence and hitting rock bottom in Sally's eyes forces Don to stop swimming as a shark for a little bit and maybe self-examine a little. So, far it looks like it's working. However, I can get a little sentimental about Don. I was badly burned when I thought there he was making substantial improvements when he was dating Faye Miller. So, I'm keeping it a little at arms length.
And this has been a long comment. I had feelings....No need to respond to all of my word vomit if you don't want.
Reply
Reply
(And given that you've made Willow/Don comparisons before, I think that's another place where I think they overlap; I think there is a kind of...desperate need to be doing things, constantly striving for better, which goes beyond simple ambition into something that is compulsive, like the dialogue with Oz over her overactive thinking and how only sex shuts it off, which is why some of the moments I have the most love for her are the moments where she does let go, even though I also love that ambition/compulsion -- I guess to continue with the random Oz theme the way she just drops the revenge spell and the flasks all go crashing down is a huge moment, because she's making the braver, more difficult choice to not be doing something. Which I think fits with what you've said about Don finding the implied rest suggested by his position on the couch. I think Don especially really closely associates rest of any kind with death, hence the fact that he can usually only get rest by pushing himself past his limit, drugging himself with alcohol or pushing himself past the limit of physical exertion with sex and impossibly long hours, because he wants to rest but he struggles with the kind of sense of security required to sleep fully expecting to wake up rejuvenated, that one can let things be for a time and then they'll still be there when he wakes up.)
Reply
Absolutely. One of my favorite Don speeches and frankly, TV speeches every- "You're born alone and you die alone and this world just drops a bunch of rules on top of you to make you forget those facts. But I never forget. I'm living like there's no tomorrow, because there isn't one."
Don lies with the truth. (per our AtS conversations). However, Don generally reveals parts of himself even though his speech was intended as a smooth suave come-on to make Rachel Menken believe that he's a single guy that truly likes her to get her business, her affection and eventually, sex from her. Nope, Don isn't alone. He has a wife and kids that he's ignoring- but yet, he *is* alone inside and he *is* living like there's no tomorrow because he expects the bottom to drop out of his life any day. It makes him very dangerous. Don really believes what he's selling because it does have a bit of important truth to it even though the most salient points that have a pragmatic effect on other's lives are pure manipulative bullshit. Like, from the same ep- Don *does* think that it's comforting to refer to tobacco as "toasted" and it does give a downhome feeling that whatever you're doing is "Ok". Just, pay no attention to the cancer, heart disease, increased likelihood of strokes behind the curtain of cigarettes!
I agree that Willow has a similar compulsive ambition- to achieve more success, to escape whatever her past life was, and hedonistic pleasure. It's multi-dimensional ambition instead of someone like Peggy who is really pretty much just focused on life achievements. Peggy doesn't have the same loathing of her past self. She wants more out of life than her mother represents/wants but Peggy doesn't really loathe or feel ashamed of her background or especially herself for having such a background. Peggy is a sexual person but she's not as focused on it as Don especially or Willow. Peggy socially drinks or smokes weed; she would have no interest in Don's series of benders or Willow's inclination to do magic to get more and more pleasure.
Although, Willow frequently holds herself back on the excesses of ambition for achievements and hedonism or re-directs her ambition to a good place because Willow loves her friends and SO's deeply and wants to do right by the world. Don doesn't feel anywhere near as much duty or compulsion to be good or love for others so Don's ambition is unrestrained. Also, by S1, Don made it to a world perfectly engineered for his white, wealthy, executive male self to rule and proudly display his ambition for achievements and hedonism. (To an extent, he can't show off to his wife how much he wants to sleep with other women or anyone how much he craves drugs and alcohol or anyone the childhood root of his craving for more and more.) Willow, on the other hand, needs to hide her ambition and power to retain her acceptance in the Scooby gang or the rather provincial Sunnydale community.
Reply
Leave a comment