When Dean told Timmy "Sometimes you have to do what's best for you, even if it hurts the ones you love." I thought except have Thanksgiving with someone not me, or go to college, or accept that I'm dead. It does make Dean's continued anger at Sam hypocritical at best. I mean I think Dean decided that he gave up the life for his family so Sam should do the same thing because Dean came back "because of Sam". Now, I think his reasons were a whole lot more complicated, but telling himself he did it because he loved and was taking care of Sam helps him keep his view that John (who was abusive) was really a good guy and gives him a reason to think Sam is never grateful enough. He can't strike out against John and he needs to feel like he is owed Sam's devotion.
except have Thanksgiving with someone not me, or go to college, or accept that I'm dead. It does make Dean's continued anger at Sam hypocritical at best.
right?! I mean, it's hypothetically possible that Dean had his epiphany in this episode and he's grown up enough that we'll get some indication that he's stopped resenting Sam for those things. But, as you say, that's all pretext for wanting to be angry at Sam for John's choices, so it won't change.
He can't strike out against John and he needs to feel like he is owed Sam's devotion
YES. To a point where he doesn't want Sam to have the opportunity to give that devotion freely? The end of this episode was a clear opening: if he'd coughed up the truth about Ezekiel at that moment, when Sam was particularly susceptible to Dean's perspective on their relationship in their childhoods, he totally could've finessed it and sold Sam on the idea that he did it all for ~love. This was the moment. But Dean lets it slide, because he doesn't want Sam to have the opportunity to decide for
( ... )
Hi there! I'm glad you decided to delurk, this was a really nice comment to get.
it actually helped me to regain a little bit of sympathy for Dean in a weird way by seeing him more honestly. Thank you! I'm glad I could help you like this character I...kind of do not like, lol. Because I do think there's a very consistent person in there who's much more interesting than fandom's super-abstract woobie who (supposedly) heroically refrains from dishing out worse than he's gotten even though everyone around him would totally have it coming if he did. IMO Dean makes a lot of sense. There's a very consistent method to the not-all-that-mad-ness
( ... )
OK, hopefully this will come out semi-coherent. I'm feverish so forgive me for any unintelligibleness!
Thank you! I'm glad I could help you like this character I...kind of do not like, lol.
I don't think I quite explained myself properly lol. Sympathy might not quite be the word I was looking for, maybe it's more a case of understanding him better. My reaction to Dean these days is more neutral-to-slightly negative more than anything. I can't really say that I like him anymore. It's interesting really because I think back in the earlier seasons that he could have gone either way. He showed at least a capability for change, to overcome his more negative aspects. But I think going to hell really just cemented all those negative traits. The thing is I can't entirely fault him for that, I mean I think it's a testament to some goodness in him that he didn't come back even more of a monster than he did. But of course you reach a point where you go, exactly as you said with Lucifer, I get that you have compelling reasons for
( ... )
No worries, I think I get you now. (Hope you feel better soon, though!)
But I think going to hell really just cemented all those negative traits. The thing is I can't entirely fault him for that, I mean I think it's a testament to some goodness in him that he didn't come back even more of a monster than he did.
I think there's a (somewhat understandable, but regrettable nonetheless) reluctance to talk about how their respective stints in Hell are set up to reflect their psyches in quite a sophisticated way. Sam's big fear is that he's powerless except for whatever is SO AWFUL about him that MAKES people abuse him, and so he ends up stuck in the cage being tortured by his shadow self. Dean's big fear is complicity, with the idea of having made a wrong decision on someone else's terms, because he thinks that makes him BAD and/or WEAK, which to him at this point is the same thing, so having caved (in his mind) to Alistair is as visceral a blow as possible to him. And they're both kinda right and kinda wrong - Sam is ultimately pretty
( ... )
This is my come to place when I need some air from the fandom,s Dean. There so much saccharin out there with him it can make your teeth melt just reading comments . I admit I am not a lover of these type of Dean episodes and ones that change canon . I do not think John was the greatest father but neither IMO was he the father that the show now trying to present to us and the monster alot of Dean fans have now created . Dean and normal v Sam and normal are treated so differently it is both sad and grating at the same time . We seem to be going into Sam learning about Ezekiel on a wave of Dean focus and sympathy rather than the one we should be focusing on .
This is my come to place when I need some air from the fandom,s Dean. There so much saccharin out there with him it can make your teeth melt just reading comments .
AND I AM GLAD YOU DO. Fandom's Dean is the worst! Fortunately he bears little to no resemblance to Dean the character, lol.
I do not think John was the greatest father but neither IMO was he the father that the show now trying to present to us and the monster alot of Dean fans have now created .I feel like people have this very Lifetime special picture of abusive parenting. They get that John was a bad father, therefore he was always what anyone would recognize from the outside as an abusive father. And I think that's really dangerous, to backhandedly dismiss the damage that threats, psychological manipulation, and even the trust kids have for their parents can do. A lot of the damage I see from both of the guys is very consistent with a parent who was good at using those tools, passive-aggressive silent disapproval, and even just the constant endangerment they lived
( ... )
I like the way the show is pointing out what a hypocrite Dean is. After all the times he's put Sam down for not wanting to live the hunting life, now we find out Dean didn't either.
I just really want Sam to be angry and not forgive him so quickly for making that crap decision to say yet to angel possession especially since Dean knew how Sam felt about it. Dean does NOT have the right to make those kinds of decisions for others and I want this to bite him in the butt.
If I hear one more time how Dean sacrifices everything for Sam, I'm going start vomiting. I'm sure Dean has made some sacrifices for Sam, just as Sam has for Dean. Only Dean's are acknowledged and that bugs me.
I like the way the show is pointing out what a hypocrite Dean is. After all the times he's put Sam down for not wanting to live the hunting life, now we find out Dean didn't either.
I think it makes sense, in a poignant way? I think a lot of Dean's anger at Sam for Sam's ability to leave the life, at least for long enough stretches of time to recharge, is actually about how Dean did have the chance to leave and didn't take it. He was a child, of course, he is not to be blamed for that, it doesn't mean that he wasn't being exploited by his father. But the fact that he has continued to resent Sam for what he sees as his own weakness and complicity is distressing.
I just really want Sam to be angry and not forgive him so quickly for making that crap decision to say yet to angel possession especially since Dean knew how Sam felt about it. Dean does NOT have the right to make those kinds of decisions for others and I want this to bite him in the butt.
And it's not that he does it that bothers me, it's that fandom buys his act.
YES! This is one of my main complaints. It's hard for me to understand why people don't see that what he has and is doing to Sam isn't wrong. To me it screams of wrong.
If Sam is made to look bad because of Dean's crap decision and not allowed to be angry by the writers you'll hear me screaming bloody murder.
This is one of my main complaints. It's hard for me to understand why people don't see that what he has and is doing to Sam isn't wrong. To me it screams of wrong.
I'm at the point where I just assume people who continue to victim-blame Sam for Dean's behavior do understand it's wrong and they either don't care or find the cruelty appealing.
If Sam is made to look bad because of Dean's crap decision and not allowed to be angry by the writers you'll hear me screaming bloody murder.
Hypothetically, I agree, but I really don't think that's where we're going. There are corners of fandom that will always be gross, but I don't want the show pandering to them.
Comments 16
Reply
right?! I mean, it's hypothetically possible that Dean had his epiphany in this episode and he's grown up enough that we'll get some indication that he's stopped resenting Sam for those things. But, as you say, that's all pretext for wanting to be angry at Sam for John's choices, so it won't change.
He can't strike out against John and he needs to feel like he is owed Sam's devotion
YES. To a point where he doesn't want Sam to have the opportunity to give that devotion freely? The end of this episode was a clear opening: if he'd coughed up the truth about Ezekiel at that moment, when Sam was particularly susceptible to Dean's perspective on their relationship in their childhoods, he totally could've finessed it and sold Sam on the idea that he did it all for ~love. This was the moment. But Dean lets it slide, because he doesn't want Sam to have the opportunity to decide for ( ... )
Reply
Reply
it actually helped me to regain a little bit of sympathy for Dean in a weird way by seeing him more honestly. Thank you! I'm glad I could help you like this character I...kind of do not like, lol. Because I do think there's a very consistent person in there who's much more interesting than fandom's super-abstract woobie who (supposedly) heroically refrains from dishing out worse than he's gotten even though everyone around him would totally have it coming if he did. IMO Dean makes a lot of sense. There's a very consistent method to the not-all-that-mad-ness ( ... )
Reply
Thank you! I'm glad I could help you like this character I...kind of do not like, lol.
I don't think I quite explained myself properly lol. Sympathy might not quite be the word I was looking for, maybe it's more a case of understanding him better. My reaction to Dean these days is more neutral-to-slightly negative more than anything. I can't really say that I like him anymore. It's interesting really because I think back in the earlier seasons that he could have gone either way. He showed at least a capability for change, to overcome his more negative aspects. But I think going to hell really just cemented all those negative traits. The thing is I can't entirely fault him for that, I mean I think it's a testament to some goodness in him that he didn't come back even more of a monster than he did. But of course you reach a point where you go, exactly as you said with Lucifer, I get that you have compelling reasons for ( ... )
Reply
But I think going to hell really just cemented all those negative traits. The thing is I can't entirely fault him for that, I mean I think it's a testament to some goodness in him that he didn't come back even more of a monster than he did.
I think there's a (somewhat understandable, but regrettable nonetheless) reluctance to talk about how their respective stints in Hell are set up to reflect their psyches in quite a sophisticated way. Sam's big fear is that he's powerless except for whatever is SO AWFUL about him that MAKES people abuse him, and so he ends up stuck in the cage being tortured by his shadow self. Dean's big fear is complicity, with the idea of having made a wrong decision on someone else's terms, because he thinks that makes him BAD and/or WEAK, which to him at this point is the same thing, so having caved (in his mind) to Alistair is as visceral a blow as possible to him. And they're both kinda right and kinda wrong - Sam is ultimately pretty ( ... )
Reply
Dean and normal v Sam and normal are treated so differently it is both sad and grating at the same time . We seem to be going into Sam learning about Ezekiel on a wave of Dean focus and sympathy rather than the one we should be focusing on .
Reply
AND I AM GLAD YOU DO. Fandom's Dean is the worst! Fortunately he bears little to no resemblance to Dean the character, lol.
I do not think John was the greatest father but neither IMO was he the father that the show now trying to present to us and the monster alot of Dean fans have now created .I feel like people have this very Lifetime special picture of abusive parenting. They get that John was a bad father, therefore he was always what anyone would recognize from the outside as an abusive father. And I think that's really dangerous, to backhandedly dismiss the damage that threats, psychological manipulation, and even the trust kids have for their parents can do. A lot of the damage I see from both of the guys is very consistent with a parent who was good at using those tools, passive-aggressive silent disapproval, and even just the constant endangerment they lived ( ... )
Reply
I just really want Sam to be angry and not forgive him so quickly for making that crap decision to say yet to angel possession especially since Dean knew how Sam felt about it. Dean does NOT have the right to make those kinds of decisions for others and I want this to bite him in the butt.
If I hear one more time how Dean sacrifices everything for Sam, I'm going start vomiting. I'm sure Dean has made some sacrifices for Sam, just as Sam has for Dean. Only Dean's are acknowledged and that bugs me.
Reply
I think it makes sense, in a poignant way? I think a lot of Dean's anger at Sam for Sam's ability to leave the life, at least for long enough stretches of time to recharge, is actually about how Dean did have the chance to leave and didn't take it. He was a child, of course, he is not to be blamed for that, it doesn't mean that he wasn't being exploited by his father. But the fact that he has continued to resent Sam for what he sees as his own weakness and complicity is distressing.
I just really want Sam to be angry and not forgive him so quickly for making that crap decision to say yet to angel possession especially since Dean knew how Sam felt about it. Dean does NOT have the right to make those kinds of decisions for others and I want this to bite him in the butt.
yuuuuuuuuup. I want Sam to stand up for himself.
If I hear one more time how Dean ( ... )
Reply
YES! This is one of my main complaints. It's hard for me to understand why people don't see that what he has and is doing to Sam isn't wrong. To me it screams of wrong.
If Sam is made to look bad because of Dean's crap decision and not allowed to be angry by the writers you'll hear me screaming bloody murder.
Reply
I'm at the point where I just assume people who continue to victim-blame Sam for Dean's behavior do understand it's wrong and they either don't care or find the cruelty appealing.
If Sam is made to look bad because of Dean's crap decision and not allowed to be angry by the writers you'll hear me screaming bloody murder.
Hypothetically, I agree, but I really don't think that's where we're going. There are corners of fandom that will always be gross, but I don't want the show pandering to them.
Reply
Leave a comment