a couple lists, because I'm strangely fried

[pocochina]

So I've had a suspiciously enjoyable week with Tumblr, which led to a shocking uptick in notes and....seven?! new follows in 48 hours. Which is cool but how did these people find me, people are reading my yapping and sending other people to read my yapping and WHO DID THE THING A MILLION YEARS DUNGEON!!

In seriousness, so far it's been pretty cool;

Comments

[youcallitwinter]

OMG, DISCUSSION = YAY (esp when it involves Veronica, because everything you say.)

BUT I HAVE TO SAY THIS ABOUT KLAUS BEFORE I GO BACK TO WORK: I LOVE YOUR VIEWPOINT ON HIM. I do think he's hilariously fail and find it hard to take him seriously at times, but I've never thought he's pointless. What I've always found really fascinating about him is that, imo, he's very different from how "powerful men" are often depicted. In the sense, that I always feel that his power literally derives from...the fact that he is powerful. Like, that's kind of tautological, but it's definitely my view of him. It's that, as far as I can tell, he has no particular political acumen, manipulative skills, or super-special levels of intelligence, or a "construction" of power (ala Elijah, who always ~seems powerful not only because of the way he is, but because of how he acts; he has that quiet, cool dignity that exudes power). Klaus can often be all bluster and emotionality and ridiculousness, but he is still powerful because he is powerful (and that too by accident i.e. the fact that he was the first hybrid and thus the most powerful creature on earth, etc. It isn't something that he particularly ~created for himself.)

I think that's a fascinating way to construct a male character with that much power, because it makes for an interesting alternate viewpoint to how you usually view those kind of characters; Tywin, for example, or Elijah, as I mentioned (or lol, various characters of the Christian Grey ~type, for instance. Male characters who are moneyed or much vaunted socially or ridiculously smart etc., and who have various entrenched privileges of class or race etc.) It's like you're always going "lmaaaaao" at something Klaus does and then he kills off twenty hybrids or so at once or kills off Carol Lockwood and you're reminded that this guy can do that without blinking. Powerful men act powerful, and Klaus, by the virtue of the sheer fact that he doesn't, creates an interesting, different narrative, and makes him more dangerous that possibly any other character on the show. His power genuinely lies in his ability (whether conscious or not) of making people forget that he is, and this, holds not only for the in-universe characters, but also, interestingly enough, for the audience.

ETA: The reason for most of the other character constructions is often that narratives try to make out that male characters are powerful not because of their entrenched privileges (which is the legit truth about 80% of the time), but that the power is something inherent in them, that they're powerful because of themselves, because they have the skills which makes them so, not because the social structure often automatically places them at that position. And Klaus's narrative actively goes AGAINST that general tendency of characterization, he IS powerful because the supernatural structure so places him, and not for any other particular reason contingent on who he is.

ETA24594389439: I AM SO SORRY ABOUT ALL THE EDITS. I KEEP HAVING MORE THOUGHTS ON THIS, UGH.

[pocochina]

OMG YES ALL OF THIS. And it's something I think only TVD could do, because it captures the essence of "life in the state of nature" in a way I've never seen another show do. The only other narrative I can think of off the top of my head that does it is Lord of the Flies, though I'm sure there are more.

I will say that I think Klaus has one edge on most people in terms of interactions, in that I think he is shockingly cynical and ruthless about acting on it. More cynical than the other werewolves, more so than Elena, his baseline expectation is not just that people might let you down, but that people are absolutely 100% always out to get him. And because he feels so wronged by the world - and though Klaus is the most awful character in the 'verse, I also think he is the most sinned against - he has absolutely no qualms about acting on it. (Exactly the opposite of Elijah in this regard, who time and again lets people fuck with him because he wants someone to pass on the opportunity and never learns that they never will.)

But...I'm still vehemently agreeing with you, I think, because even that is not an innate quality in any way. It's a hard-won lesson learned over a thousand years, and he applies it in a way that requires no thought (if it's a 100% thing then there's no need to use one's judgment, after all) and with the massive, hegemonic brute force he has at his disposal. And he just happens to live in a world where that suspicion is completely justified.

I think your point about Tywin is really interesting in this light, because they have quite similar paranoia and scorched-earth styles. But (a) Klaus is immortal, and so he doesn't need to come up with a bunch of illusions about ~legacy (and therefore create a bunch of blind spots about other people) and (b) Klaus has experienced that ruthlessness as the disempowered party, and so he knows the score inside and out in a way Tywin never has and never will. TYWIN WISHES HE COULD BE KLAUS, LOL.

It's like you're always going "lmaaaaao" at something Klaus does and then he kills off twenty hybrids or so at once or kills off Carol Lockwood and you're reminded that this guy can do that without blinking.

Yes I agree and also yes! Like, you can't have a character who's as clear-eyed about power dynamics as Klaus is and have him always act like it, because then he just becomes a mechanical two-dimensional antagonist. Klaus being frequently ridiculous is what keeps us sensitive to the horrifying things he does, because we know he is so alive to it all.

[pocochina]

I mean, I think it can be as cynical as it is because it shows people (well, creatures with human-ish cognitive processes, so, setting aside the existential personhood question) operating in a world where everyone operates on the assumption that there are a lot of incentives for violent dominance plays, and absolutely no pre-existing social or moral disincentives for that violence. The Council is unreliable, and has been pretty well toothless for a very long time, and any mundane authorities are of course not going to do a bit of good. It's everyone for themselves, a modern exploration of Hobbesian war of all against all. There are some arguable mitigating circumstances (family ties), but even these are (a) closely tied to self-interest and (b) far from guarantees.

And I think it's as brutal on social politics as it is because we've effectively watched the MF kids form an ad hoc social contract - they know it's in their self-interest to band together to some extent, but they also have to be gaming that system in order to be as far inside as possible. (In this way it's even more sophisticated than Lord of the Flies, which is ofc about the dissolution of the social contract, which means that the state of having a social contract can remain relatively unproblematized. Whereas TVD....certainly demonstrates the necessity of a social contract, but it's can't be idealized.) This started to change with the fact that they're all tied to Klaus, and is pretty much over as of the entrance of the quasi-religious figure Silas, but still, very cool.

[pocochina]

I WANT TO LIVE INSIDE YOUR BRAIN

I WOULD WISH THIS ON NO ONE.

Do you think it's over now that Silas has entered the picture? Nooooo, it's one of my favorite parts of the show! :(

I don't think the cynicism and status-jockeying is over, by any means, but I do think that the existence of someone so much more powerful than they are changes the nature of that status-jockeying? I'd compare him to R'hllor and the White Walkers in GoT - it doesn't erase the usual power plays, but you'll get critical mass for a few clumps of people to have an interest in the collective.

I really disagree with the tendency of fandom to condemn characters for making the system work for them, if they can? Like, I'm willing to bet that you (the general you) wouldn't want to die either, if you were in their place! And I can't fault any of the kids for not only wanting to make it out alive, but to get some enjoyment out of life while doing so.

Agreed, ofc.

[youcallitwinter]

UGH WHY DO I HAVE TO WORK. (Not that I am, I keep coming back here, lol, because omg such an interesting discussion.) But, I think this is the first time that I've realized why, out of all the characters, Katherine is the one most terrified of Klaus. I mean, she practically created the whole Klaus myth all by herself in S2, so when Klaus actually appeared on the scene, and was so ridiculous and waxed lyrical about hummingbirds, it kind of made everyone go "wait...this is the guy Katherine's been running from for half a millennium?! THAT MAKES NO SENSE." This is the first time I've realized that it DOES make sense, not only because Klaus killed her entire family (which it's so easy to forget sometimes, BECAUSE LOOK AT HIM), but because as someone whose spent her entire existence in just surviving, she recognizes power, and actively makes use of it wherever she finds it. Katherine isn't blindsided by externalities as most other characters are, because, in her way, she is as clear-sighted as Klaus is. For her, Klaus being a total dork doesn't change the fact that he's also a ridiculously powerful hybrid (which is kind of why she survives. She's actively trying. Elena and Caroline and the Salvatores and the rest, as much as they may be actually be protected by protagonist privileges, are textually definitely at the mercy of Klaus, should he so choose to turn against them at any point.)

Also, I kind of find Klaus very interestingly amoral in the way that I had always imagined someone living a 1000 years would be. He is his sole concern in all his endeavors. He doesn't particularly seem to have a ~moral base as such (as both Elijah and Rebekah have actively demonstrated in their concern for humanity or 'doing the right thing'). It's just simply not a question he asks. If Caroline doesn't want him to kill someone, he may not, but it's not because he believes killing itself is "bad". Literally stabbing his family in the back is not betrayal for him. And yet, when the situation is reversed and he ascends to the "victim" state, he preaches conventional morality of the how-could-you-do-this-I-trusted-you variety. And he likes to believe himself to be the lonely ~good guy trapped in the situation (which Caroline plays to). But he's never actively demonstrated any sort of morality that does not in him arise from himself and for himself.

[pocochina]

as someone whose spent her entire existence in just surviving, she recognizes power, and actively makes use of it wherever she finds it. Katherine isn't blindsided by externalities as most other characters are, because, in her way, she is as clear-sighted as Klaus is.

I never even noticed that Katherine was more afraid of Klaus than the others were (and she's far more worried about him than about Elijah, because she has Elijah wrapped around her pinkie and because he's just not as dangerous as Klaus), but you're absolutely right.

Literally stabbing his family in the back is not betrayal for him. And yet, when the situation is reversed and he ascends to the "victim" state, he preaches conventional morality of the how-could-you-do-this-I-trusted-you variety.

Agreed. All's fair in love and war, and the Original family are very deeply mired in both. Though I will say in his defense that he never actually tried to permanently kill his siblings in the way they've threatened to do to him - daggering sucks, but it can be undone, at least.

[lynnenne]

and though Klaus is the most awful character in the 'verse, I also think he is the most sinned against

I think this is one of the points that fascinates me about Klaus - that we actually get to see the construction of the monster, yet it does nothing to make him more sympathetic. Unlike shows like Dexter or The Sopranos where the audience is asked to root for the monster, Klaus remains the antagonist. I love watching him yet I don't feel one bit sorry for him. (He's kind of like Gaius Baltar in that regard.)

[pocochina]

YES. TVD - the TVD 'verse, I should probably get used to saying - does this so much better than any other show I can think of. Other shows, even shows that do have genuine and thoughtful philosophical perspectives generally, tend to fall into the trap of assuming that that which is understood is also condoned.

ie, going on with the BSG comparison, I think this was the core problem with the Cylons? That as the different models/characters started to differentiate themselves and articulate their points of view, I would automatically give those perspectives more moral weight - like, the ONLY reason to take issue with them was that they were Other and I didn't understand them. When, no, the more I heard from them, the less likely I was to allow for the possibility that they had a valid moral point - and that had nothing to do with whether or not the humans had a right to use the minimal effective force to defend themselves against the deranged murderers (yes) or a right to torture said deranged murderers out of pure sadism (no), which remained the case from the miniseries through the finale. And I feel like TVD does understand that distinction, as best seen with Klaus and the other Originals.

I do feel for Klaus and Gaius, though. Their pathetic woobieness deflates them sufficiently for me, even if I wouldn't actually want to be in their splash zone, lol.

[lynnenne]

I think I feel more sympathy for Gauis than I do for Klaus, because I believe that he genuinely regrets and is sorry for the role he played in the destruction of the colonies, and then in humanity's enslavement on New Caprica. Klaus, OTOH, shows no remorse for anything, so he inspires zero pity in me.

Yet I still love him the best. Weird, huh? I blame Joseph Morgan.

[youcallitwinter]

I AM GLAD WE ARE IN AGREEMENT \o/ (isn't it interesting we can have totally different emotional responses to a character and still essentially agree on them?)

I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT TERM, BUT YAY, I SHALL SO USE IT FROM HEREON. Also, I think this is one of the major reasons why the Strong Female Character (TM) trope is such a sham. Because their power is almost always solely contingent on the performance of it, you cannot tell that a female character is ~powerful unless they perform that power, which is one of the first signs of their actual disempowerment. Real power is almost always invisible.

[lynnenne]

And it plays into the OSG trope in the sense that fandom (without even saying it explicitly), for the most part jumps to the assumption that, "Oh, he's ~different around her because of something intrinsic to her." Whereas really it's that the guy is ~humoring his whims because she happens to pique his issues/ego in the right way, and the instant she steps out of line, BOOM. There goes the fallacy. And people think it's the writers "ruining" the male character, when really it was a case of the audience mistakenly attributing his behavior to some inherent ~specialness in the girl, i.e. He wanted it to be Real With Her because of who SHE is. LOL no.

This is as true in life as it is in fiction.

[lynnenne]

The reason for most of the other character constructions is often that narratives try to make out that male characters are powerful not because of their entrenched privileges (which is the legit truth about 80% of the time), but that the power is something inherent in them, that they're powerful because of themselves, because they have the skills which makes them so, not because the social structure often automatically places them at that position. And Klaus's narrative actively goes AGAINST that general tendency of characterization, he IS powerful because the supernatural structure so places him, and not for any other particular reason contingent on who he is.

I want to marry this comment and have its entrenched privileged werebabies.