girls who like girls but only if they like other girls RIGHT

[pocochina]

So this started out as a quick response to a meme way back when. And then it turned into a ~thing. And then it collected stray thoughts from everywhere. And now it's at least three posts of me being increasingly contrary about the Doing FanFeminism Right consensus.

Comments

[pocochina]

I have a very different reaction to vitriolic character hate in fandom vs. someone who just isn't into a particular characterIt's not even amount of character hate. Like, I've made very long posts on characters I don't like, explaining in loving and profane detail WHY I do not like them. Not often, because I usually either like or love characters who make enough of an impression on me that I can analyze them at all, but I've done it. But I do it because I need all that space in order to work through those issues enough to know they're what's really bothering me and take the sting out of them. But I still know what it's like to say "here is a logical, well-sourced dissection of X character's motives and thought processes" and still get crazy-bitched as a "hater," and so I'm reluctant to do it myself

[pocochina]

I assumed that anyone who was making statements about "the writers" was either (a) sincerely invested in critiquing the writing process and thinking about how canon could be better, OR (b) trying to be polite and focus on the framing, etc. rather than bashing characters.

lol, I am just a giganimous bitch, I guess.

Or they're afraid that an I-statement would be too revealing.

ahahaha. When actually, it's the "they" statement which is a window into someone's brain. It's like a too-much-detail lie. If "eh, just didn't land for me" is an option, why the weasel words?*

*Though, of course, a lot of my issue is with the environment where people do sometimes feel the need to use weasel words. This is just a thing that makes me wonder if I don't have any other context, not something that makes me dismiss a person entirely or hurt the credibility of someone I do know something about.

[pocochina]

I feel like once you think enough about fandom behavior, it's possible to parse someone's reactions to a degree where you can at least supplement the presumption of good faith with some evidence confirming whether or not that presumption is justified?

Completely. I am pretty ruthlessly cynical when I do see certain cues (as you have probably noticed, lol). But in the absence of that, I don't decide I'm ~better and smarter and more enlightened than ~those other women girls. But that vibe, sadly, is starting to become one of those cues that set me on guard

[ever_neutral]

Too wiped to add any intelligent insight, but this is a good post.

less and less patience with how I sometimes feel expected to be apologetic for how much male characters resonate with me.
Amen to your mother. It's like what you said in your post on bad boys about how it's just refreshing to be able to engage and identify with the feminine-coded characteristics of male characters without having to worry about how the characters themselves are going to be marginalised by the narrative, you know?

but in the words of a character I'm a Bad Horrible Fake Feminist for loving, that's a long story for another day.
If this day ever arrives, I would be very very interested to read this story.

[pocochina]

Yeah, exactly. It's not that "the only way to engage with fiction is to distance from Girl Stuff" because I think we all know how I feel about that, so much as "if one way you engage with fiction is to set aside this particular worry as much as possible, that is okay."

If this day ever arrives, I would be very very interested to read this story.

I CANNOT let go of the "man pain" thing, and when it's a structural criticism versus when it's "aha, an excuse to pick on a vulnerable person because FEMINISM!" I'm like a dog with a bone.

[mcjulie]

fandom is embarrassingly eager to bring the Social Justice hammer down on good-faith conversationOh, my, yes. It makes it very hard to discuss anything controversial -- because there seems to be a weird cultural assumption that the person who is the most INCREDIBLY PISSED OFF by something "wins," and any more nuanced opinion gets shouted down as offensive in itself

[pocochina]

there seems to be a weird cultural assumption that the person who is the most INCREDIBLY PISSED OFF by something "wins," and any more nuanced opinion gets shouted down as offensive in itself.

WORRRRD. And to some extent I have some sympathy; I know the feeling of being pressured to either take an all-or-nothing stance or risk being the target of someone else's all-or-nothing stance. At the same time...for the "sometimes" and "tends" conversations to be okay, there have to be enough "sometimes" and "tends" conversations. I try to start the types of conversations I want to have, I do. I fail often, but I try.

And yeah, I completely agree that internalized misogyny exists, and I didn't get the impression that the person in the post was arguing otherwise? It's just a conversation where people seem especially eager to use a bazooka where a water pistol would do just fine.

On a total side note, my earliest understanding of feminism was as it related to fiction -- I had picked up somehow that the Dick and Jane books were considered sexist

[mcjulie]

I know the feeling of being pressured to either take an all-or-nothing stance or risk being the target of someone else's all-or-nothing stance

So true.

[pocochina]

YOU FLATTER ME MA'AM. CARRY ON. <3