cop shows for people who don't like cop shows: 1/?

[pocochina]

Probably I should've counted tonight's post on The Wire as the first of these posts, but I didn't really think it through. STILL. TNT has (at least) three great cop shows for people who don't like cop shows. Or, at least, people (me) who do occasionally like cop shows but have certain serious concerns about the genre. Tonight's addressed concern

Comments

[percysowner]

Raydor works closely and on-screen with several women from the DA's office, and the squad's newest member is Sharon's ambitious young protegee Sykes(who IIRC - though see above re: missing most of The Closer - is the first major WOC character in a franchise that's more racially diverse than most comparable series).

She is actually the second WOC in the series. There was a character in seasons 1-4 named Irene Daniels played by Gina Ravara who was African-American/Puerto Rican. She was involved in an affair with Gabriel and when the actress decided to leave the show she broke up with Gabriel and they became unable to work together, partly because Gabriel was a total and complete brat about the whole situation. He demeaned her and eventually they were given the ultimatum that one had to go. Since the actress was leaving and Gabriel was one of Brenda Leigh's favorites, Daniels transferred.

I don't know if you started watching when Sharon Raydor was first introduced, but I far preferred her first relationship with Brenda, in which they thoroughly disliked each other. Being TV, Raydor had to eventually come to "respect" Brenda and be on her side. I came to see Brenda as being a serial killer. Not in the traditional, "I can't stop myself I need to kill" Dexter way, but in the "if I can't convict them, I'll find a way to kill them" way. She arranged for the deaths of four suspects who got away and never once blinked about it. I did give the show minor props for the fact that she did get the civil suit where the plaintiffs attorney called her out on her murderous behavior, even though he was portrayed as being a shady ambulance chaser who may have been friends with Phillip Stroh the serial killer. I loved that she had to acquiesce to the "Johnson Rule" which labeled her behavior as wrong for ever and ever. Brenda was totally self-centered, incredibly self-righteous and in many ways a horrible person. Which made her a character that was fascinating to watch.

Being in The Closer fandom was interesting. Much like many fans in Supernatural see Dean as pure and right, a majority of the fans support how Brenda handled her cases, including the bullying and the blatant manipulations she used to "win" and I do believe that getting the guilty off the street was not Brenda's goal. Her goal was solely to win and to be "right". I am a retired law librarian, so I tend to view the law and lawyers differently from many people do. I always found it interesting that if Brenda had come up against a public official who arranged for the deaths of suspects who she couldn't get a confession from, then Brenda would have done everything in her power to nail that official to the wall. Brenda was so incredibly blinkered about who she was. She saw herself as good and no matter who was hurt or how many rights she trampled on, Brenda would never, ever admit she was flawed in any way.

The thing is the first season or so was a great look at the politics of gender and how a woman, who did not rise through the ranks, but is brought in by her former lover navigates the men who think she is just a little piece of southern fluff. The male entitlement of the first year is pervasive as the mostly male detectives feel that a woman has been unjustly elevated over a deserving man.

For me, Brenda is infuriating, aggravating, amoral and fascinating. I love what the series has become under Sharon Raydor. I like having the rule of law followed. I like the fact that realistically plea bargains are the way the system operates. I am much more comfortable with a police department that does things by the book because the head of the department knows that is the way it must be done.

I love Major Crimes. I actually did like The Closer as a study of how a powerful personality can shape a department. There is some really good personal and political dynamics in The Closer if you watch the whole thing. I can completely understand that the vigilante justice of The Closer is a complete turnoff for you.

Cool, another show we share!

[pocochina]

There was a character in seasons 1-4 named Irene Daniels played by Gina Ravara who was African-American/Puerto Rican. She was involved in an affair with Gabriel and when the actress decided to leave the show she broke up with Gabriel and they became unable to work together, partly because Gabriel was a total and complete brat about the whole situation. He demeaned her and eventually they were given the ultimatum that one had to go.

WOW I missed a lot! It was one of those shows that for a few months was just always on every time I hit the treadmill so I feel like I've seen at least a fair amount of it, but maybe not. And...I think I'll live.

I don't know if you started watching when Sharon Raydor was first introduced, but I far preferred her first relationship with Brenda, in which they thoroughly disliked each other. Being TV, Raydor had to eventually come to "respect" Brenda and be on her side.

I REALLY TRIED to start watching for Raydor's first few episodes! And yes, I really appreciated that someone came in to challenge her.

The thing is the first season or so was a great look at the politics of gender and how a woman, who did not rise through the ranks, but is brought in by her former lover navigates the men who think she is just a little piece of southern fluff. The male entitlement of the first year is pervasive as the mostly male detectives feel that a woman has been unjustly elevated over a deserving man.

oooooh, interesting. Is that something you think the show retained over time? It just sounds a little toothless as the critique it could be, given the way Brenda turned out - ie, someone who might or might not have had a useful field skill but clearly had no business running and setting an example for a team of people. (I do think that's something MC fixed, with Provenza getting snapped out of his own egotistical bullshit, and fairly quickly at that.)

if Brenda had come up against a public official who arranged for the deaths of suspects who she couldn't get a confession from, then Brenda would have done everything in her power to nail that official to the wall.

YAHTZEE.

That comparison to Dexter is so interesting! But yeah. Given how often her confessions don't hold up in court - and like, I really wonder just how shitty a job you have to be doing to have that kind of track record. She hinders the rule of law, and then takes matters into her own hands. She's totally Dex!

It's a shame, because the series really could've ended any other way and I think I'd have been able to tolerate it. You know? Having her work for the DA's office is this undeserved absolution for all of her illegal behavior.

Fortunately we have MC! I don't know that it'll give me much to say week to week but I'm so glad there are a bunch of people on my f-list who are excited about it.

[percysowner]

oooooh, interesting. Is that something you think the show retained over time? It just sounds a little toothless as the critique it could be, given the way Brenda turned out - ie, someone who might or might not have had a useful field skill but clearly had no business running and setting an example for a team of people. (I do think that's something MC fixed, with Provenza getting snapped out of his own egotistical bullshit, and fairly quickly at that.)

This did not carry over in time. By the end of the first season, the male detectives, barring Taylor the African/American "comic" character (who was passed over so Brenda could take charge) had all come to accept that Brenda was JUST THAT GOOD and they took to her no holds barred, make them confess no matter what world view. Provenza started out with his male egotistical bullshit, but then he bought into Brenda's egotistical bullshit, so less sexist, but still bullshit.

The only time the gender politics really reared their head was when Brenda and Pope went head to head to become Chief of Police. On one hand Pope was the absolute definition of white, male entitlement. He was fairly clear that once Brenda knew he was going for the position, she should just step aside and let him take it. Delk, the African/American who won the job was never a consideration, like I said very much WHITE male privilege was on display. BUT Brenda was in no way, shape or form qualified to become Chief of Police. She wouldn't have been able to get confessions, she would have had to play politics. Not being able to prove herself the "smartest person in the room" to get confessions would have made her miserable. Playing politics was not only not her forte, but completely out of her skill set. Brenda Leigh was completely and totally unable to take any criticism whatsoever. She would have been a disaster as a Chief of Police. It was an act of total FAIL that Sharon Raydor came up with the idea that Brenda should be the female candidate for Chief of Police. Yes, the writing couched it in the idea that Sharon (who would have been superb in the job) couldn't get the appointment because her work in Internal Affairs made her a pariah to the department and for no reason I could see, she thought Brenda had the public face that make Brenda a credible candidate for the post. It was before the Shoot'n Newton case had become public and before Brenda's various machinations had come to light, but still.

I do give the show credit. They never changed Brenda to make her "likeable". She remained an self involved narcissist, who did appalling things. This is a rare thing to do with a female protagonist. But, as you note, it is just another show in a long line of shows that condones the gutting of our civil rights in the name of law enforcement.

I'll be interested to see what other police shows you like. I don't watch them very often, because so many are cowboy cops, as it were. Barney Miller comes to mind, but boy is that old, although one of the best law enforcement shows ever.

It's a shame, because the series really could've ended any other way and I think I'd have been able to tolerate it. You know? Having her work for the DA's office is this undeserved absolution for all of her illegal behavior.

I did hate the cop out that Brenda moves up because she is absolved of all her sins, but American TV has a hard time dealing with flawed protagonists. I wanted Brenda to find that she couldn't function with the new rules and use her mother's death as a face saving way to leave the department, not get a promotion. OTOH, IRL, people in power, like policemen do get away with slaps on the wrist and move up because examining their actions means examining the system that permits those actions. Every once in a while, someone steps far enough out of line that they can't be covered and they get exposed and the system shakes up a little, but often things do get covered up. Moving Brenda to a position where she can't continue to inflict the damage to civil rights, but where the department doesn't have to account for continuing to PERMIT her to inflict that damage for seven years in more realistic than I like.

[pocochina]

The only time the gender politics really reared their head was when Brenda and Pope went head to head to become Chief of Police. On one hand Pope was the absolute definition of white, male entitlement. He was fairly clear that once Brenda knew he was going for the position, she should just step aside and let him take it. Delk, the African/American who won the job was never a consideration, like I said very much WHITE male privilege was on display.

Yeah, I think one could argue that it caught something real there? In that women - even women with some standout talent or another - are never taught leadership skills, or encouraged to develop the confidence that can help with credibility. So then the pool of women with authority tools shrinks to natural leaders like Sharon, at least some of whom will then be penalized for their own competence. But the show did the WORST POSSIBLE thing about that, in showing us someone who was terrible for the position, and then telling us that she deserved it because OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE BOWS BEFORE HER UNQUESTIONED SKILL - it buoys up the "exceptional woman" paradigm where men can be mediocre-good but women have to be the BEST EVER in order to get recognition, and implicitly buys into all "qualified men getting passed over for Political Correctness" by telling us Brenda should be put forward because she's a woman even though Pope was more suited to administration (largely because of his male privilege).

They never changed Brenda to make her "likeable". She remained an self involved narcissist, who did appalling things. This is a rare thing to do with a female protagonist.

I know! I wanted to like it SO BADLY.

Moving Brenda to a position where she can't continue to inflict the damage to civil rights, but where the department doesn't have to account for continuing to PERMIT her to inflict that damage for seven years in more realistic than I like.

Well, that, and the DA's office are the ones who have been cleaning up her messes for years now. They're the ones with the most reason to understand her unprofessionalism for what it is. And instead they sign up to be her safety net, and take on liability for whatever wacky shit she gets up to next? It just looked to me like "yet another Brenda critic gets in line!" except this time the critic in question was the state of California.

[astreamofstars]

I absolutely agree on the whole thing, for Brenda, being about winning. It's like it was just a game for her, and she was prepared to do anything she could so that she could come out of it at the end of the day and feel like she was smarter and better than everyone else in the room, because she'd beaten them. It drove me nuts.

And Sharon seems to be the complete opposite - absolutely about supporting and helping the people around her, applauding their achievements, playing to their strengths, without her own ego coming into play much if at all. And I love that.

[pocochina]

And Sharon seems to be the complete opposite - absolutely about supporting and helping the people around her, applauding their achievements, playing to their strengths, without her own ego coming into play much if at all. And I love that.

Yeah, I feel like the space between Brenda and Sharon is a great example of that subtle difference between someone who wants to do things and someone who wants shit to get done.

[penny_lane_42]

The thing is the first season or so was a great look at the politics of gender and how a woman, who did not rise through the ranks, but is brought in by her former lover navigates the men who think she is just a little piece of southern fluff. The male entitlement of the first year is pervasive as the mostly male detectives feel that a woman has been unjustly elevated over a deserving man.

Agreed. As a southern woman who is pretty constantly written off because of A) my accent, which automatically labels me as 'stupid' and B) the fact that I look like a very young girl, that really spoke to me in the episodes of the show I saw early on. Seeing someone of the same 'type' who was capable and competent on TV was a WOW moment for me since I hadn't seen that since Designing Women, pretty much. (Oh, wait, I lied: Tami Taylor. But FNL was extraordinary in every way, so it felt different.)

I didn't watch much of the show so I'm taking y'all's word for it that that exploration was overwhelmed by the airlocking of all morality and respect for the Constitution, but even though Sedgwick's attempt at an accent was appalling, I liked seeing a lady with an accent being capable on TV.

[pocochina]

even though Sedgwick's attempt at an accent was appalling, I liked seeing a lady with an accent being capable on TV.

There really is a dearth of characters with accents, and yeah, particularly for women; the only counterexamples I'm coming up with are men like Sawyer on Lost (though I don't know how good his is, he at least has those particular markers) and Lindsey from Angel. Even on Dallas, which is very WOOOO TEXAS and meant to have that sense of place...it's not that they don't have what I would think of as a southern accent, because I feel like Texan accents are different too, it's that the characters speak like I do which just can't be right.

[penny_lane_42]

Yeah, and exacerbating the whole thing is that accents vary WILDLY even within a given state--a West TN accent sounds NOTHING like an East TN accent. Add to that the differences in economic status and education....

There absolutely are a lot of people here who speak newscaster English. A lot. So just because someone is from the south doesn't mean they'll have an accent, but there are certain shibboleths that will give even them away (you don't hear southerners say supermarket--that's a dead giveaway they're from somewhere else). But there are a ton of us with accents, so...you'd think there'd be more of them on TV, but I guess not.

I do love Sawyer's accent, though!

[obsessive_a101]

Hiiiii! I love reading your thoughts and perspectives on the other seasons, because I'm another one who started watching when MM got her Sharon Raydor role, but I knew about Irene Daniels, and I knew that something happened with Gabriel, but never quite knew the details.

I HAD tried to watch a few episodes of the show before MM's guest appearance, to get a feel for it and ended up with a bad taste in my mouth though. Maybe it was just that that particular episode had Brenda REALLY playing at her bullying worst without a single naysayer in the crowd, and I remember ranting while on the phone with my college roommate (whose family was a humongous fan of the show), and LOL - the rest, as they say, was history. I watched for Sharon Raydor because I honestly fell for her character... some time... around the second or third episode she appeared in? :3

Anyway, another Major Crimes fan! YAY! :D

[pocochina]

Maybe it was just that that particular episode had Brenda REALLY playing at her bullying worst without a single naysayer in the crowd

I kept watching an episode - well, fifteen or twenty minutes of an episode - saying that, and avoiding it for weeks or months, and then be channel-flipping and decide to give it another shot except she'd be acting the same and I would be more aggravated and trying to ignore it for even longer until eventually starting the cycle over again.