SPN - Trial and Error

[pocochina]

So you know that first phone call you get around four on some Sunday afternoon, and your friend is all over the moon because her meth dealer boyfriend took her out for a perfect romantic dinner and told her all about how he's going to leave his fiancee

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[cuddyclothes]

Disclaimer: I loved the monologues, more because of what was going on emotionally than the content. HOWEVER:

I am. And so are you. You’re not a grunt, Dean, you’re a genius. When it comes to lore...you’re the best damn hunter I’ve ever seen. Better than me, better than dad.

This line jumped out at me because of two things:

1) The reference to lore. Dean doesn't work the lore, that's either Sam or the late lamented Bobby. Genius? Wha...?

2) I wish they had retextualized that. Because Dean is a great hunter. We've seen that over time, and he survived a year in Purgatory. BUT every time an outside force (demon's blood, the siren, etc.)has taken over Sam, he says he's a better hunter, that he's "stronger" than Dean. I never quite know what they mean by "stronger" on this show. Tougher? Better in some way? Is it just guy talk? When he was soulless, he was an amazing hunter, also when he lost Dean in "Mystery Spot

[pocochina]

I mean, how the guys want to see each other and themselves is a worthwhile part of the show, you know? I just think that the inaccuracies and misrepresentations are as much a part of the characterization as whatever it is they say.

See, I don't think any of it was a mistake. I think all the things about it that were questionable or not true are make perfect sense as what Sam thinks Dean wants to hear, not about what you'd write in an impartial official biography.

I never quite know what they mean by "stronger" on this show.

Yeah, agreed. I don't think either of them is the "stronger" hunter generally, although when Sam loses his inhibitions for one reason or another, all bets are off.

What is dubcon?

Dubious consent. The guy here made the same deal Becky did over Sam a season ago.

[ellie_234]

I think Sam's speech was spoken by Sam but designed for Dean. I believe Dean is a great hunter and can be instinctive and quick thinking at times but the and I quote' best hunter ever' was over the top .
Dean's speech was spoken at Sam but designed for Dean , he's schizophrenic wanting Sam to have 'normal' can cause a whip lash sometimes esp in regards to his attitude first half of the season .

Having said that I actually really liked the episode and wont deny giving Sam the trials gives him a role rather than a weak sl that gives me relief more than anything .

[pocochina]

Yeah, agreed, both speeches were All About Dean. Which makes a lot of sense, actually? I mean, I'd rather them have a healthy dynamic, but they don't and so this episode was painfully in line with how things have been between them.

he's schizophrenic wanting Sam to have 'normal' can cause a whip lash sometimes esp in regards to his attitude first half of the season

ha, yeah, though I think "full of shit when it makes him look and feel good to be" is a much likelier explanation than schizophrenia.

[cuddyclothes]

It seems that his attitude has changed, though. From rage to grudging acceptance (the ending of "Torn and Frayed" where he basically let Sam go off, if that's what he wanted).

Although yes, self-glorification mixed with self-loathing...that's our Dean. "You can't do the trials because it's all about MEEEEE and my (not really but it's my go-to) death wish."

ETA: I never in this lifetime thought we would hear Dean talk about tomatoes and have bananas in his shopping bag! I think vitamins is still setting the bar too high. :)

[pocochina]

It seems that his attitude has changed, though. From rage to grudging acceptance (the ending of "Torn and Frayed" where he basically let Sam go off, if that's what he wanted).

Even that struck me as all tell and no show, though? Because he waits until Sam is good and terrified for Cas, and then he throws down the ultimatum. It all but guaranteed Sam was going to stick around, and to feel too complicit in the whole thing to challenge The Way Dean Likes Things Done. If he'd been consciously playing Sam he couldn't have done better. Maybe he was signalling a genuine desire to change, but since then there hasn't been any sort of test of that resolve, and so I don't have any reason to buy it, especially not against, you know, the everything else.

Although yes, self-glorification mixed with self-loathing...that's our Dean. "You can't do the trials because it's all about MEEEEE and my (not really but it's my go-to) death wish."Right. And I think it's the chickens coming home to roost on the Winchester absolutism. He HAS TO be willing to

[percysowner]

One of the more interesting things going on in this episode revolved around Kevin. Fandom has long revered Dean for being a caretaker. The fanon view of Dean is someone who always wants to take care of people, especially Sam, and who has their best interests at heart. This season has canonically shown Dean being quite uninterested in people as long as they achieve the goal he wants. Kevin is a prime example. Early in the season Dean was more than willing to kill Kevin's mother to stop Crowley and get control of the tablet. In earlier seasons, the killing of a demon host could be rationalized by the fact that demons tend to not take care of their host bodies and that those bodies have likely already been damaged beyond repair, so killing the host is not that bad a thing. But in Mrs. Tran's case she had only been possessed for a few minutes and there was little to no chance that her body was damaged. Dean still led the charge to kill her rather than save her

[pocochina]

The fanon view of Dean is someone who always wants to take care of people, especially Sam, and who has their best interests at heart. This season has canonically shown Dean being quite uninterested in people as long as they achieve the goal he wants.

YES. I think it's been fairly clear for a long time that Dean's caretaking is really not about the best interests of others as individuals, so much as, it's about The Group. He does what he feels is necessary to keep people around and in their place. ie, his behavior throughout S1 (~way before the shit hit the fan) is solicitous and concerned, but if it was about Sam's well-being, we would've seen him ask ONCE if Sam is sure he wants to be doing this, or even encouraged him to go back to school, once Sam started being able to deal with the first shock of his grief over Jessica. Instead he avoids the topic, pressures Sam to sever ties with his friends, tries to guilt him out of leaving the life after the YED is dead

[bitterlimetwist]

I've spent the last decade yanking you into the line of fire because I want you to LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE.

AHAHAHAHA, yes.

THIS SHOW IT'S KILLING ME

Ugh, it's so good.

[pocochina]

HE'S SO FULL OF SHIT AND THE SHOW KNOWS IT.

I <3 this season so much.