“I got high on blood like some crackhead and then dirty danced with you” is completely about embarrassment about getting caught letting loose with ew, Damon, Prince of the Id. lol yep
And same about Elena's dodging and coping mechanisms. She didn't once lose control of her actions, she "lost control" of her emotions, i.e. acted on pure id. But she can't accept that it was all her.
She’s not supposed to want to; it’s marginally acceptable to be swept up in the throes of passion and indulge when she’s out of control, but acknowledging that desire is different. She’s wired to want it, like the vast majority of her species, but if she wants it she’s BAD so she represses and denies. Yes. It's a really difficult and complicated thing that's just about impossible to talk about. Because it's clear to me that Elena canonically wants to do X (i.e. gleefully feeding on people, murdering Connor, etc.), but if she rationalizes after the fact that she DIDN'T, then that shuts down the whole conversation in more ways than one.
See, I don’t get where people are getting the idea that Stefan’s characterization as a manipulative douche is not intentional Neither. And I've bitched long and hard about the handling of Stefan, but this season for the most part has been remarkably on point about his horribleness.
I think Stefan knows, on some level, that Elena doesn’t hate being a vampire. That she might have made peace with it, or even enjoy it. And he just CANNOT DEAL with that. Yep. And Elena doesn't hate it. She actually is good at it, and if it weren't for the behavior-policing, she would succeed in being okay with what's happened to her (and she still might).
It’s cute that he doesn’t care if Elena’s a human or a vampire (and I believe that’s true, btw), but I don’t see how supporting and enabling Stefan’s controlling douchery because BROS BEFORE HOS is any better than actually engaging in it. Haha, yes. It's terrible, but just typical of the Salvabros. I think Damon will always choose Stefan over what's right for Elena, what's new in life.
EDITED to clarify what you meant re: this:
She only jumps on Damon after she gets “killed.” It’s a clever little moment - it looks to Elena like it means she knows how to defend herself and she’s ready to get involved, but all that proves is that she missed Damon’s point entirely. Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following.
Because it's clear to me that Elena canonically wants to do X (i.e. gleefully feeding on people, murdering Connor, etc.), but if she rationalizes after the fact that she DIDN'T, then that shuts down the whole conversation in more ways than one.
Right. That, and it's a tough leap for me, because obviously feeding on someone is inherently predatory in a way that sex is not, and the possibility of compulsion creates a power dynamic that I'm not comfortable imputing to sex. But Elena's conflict about it, and the whole idea of the narrative needing to walk that balance of how much agency and wherewithal she can have around what she is emotionally and biologically driven to do, is a really interesting look at those traditional romance tropes. Because that's the narrative, right? As long as she can deny that she wants to do it, then she *has* to deny that she wants to do it, or the story falls apart. And I don't think I've seen quite this honest a take on the number all that can do to your head as Elena's guilt/shame conflation here.
this season for the most part has been remarkably on point about his horribleness.
Yeah. I mean, I may be overly charitable toward the writers, but I just can't imagine that something which has been consistent for what, 70 episodes is an accident? Stefan is slippery and manipulative and built on deception of self and others and has a truly terrifying relationship with interpersonal power dynamics, and this has always been the case. Whether or not he's always judged harshly enough for it by the narrative is...I guess a question of authorial intent that I can't muster the energy to care about because we know better than they do, obvs.
It struck me as really intentional, too, the way both Elena and Stefan are clinging to their old dynamics with their abusive exes. I'm pretty excited for Stefan's eventual meltdown when it sinks in that he will neverrrrrrrr be free of Klaus. I think denial of that fact is driving the deceptive behavior now as much as denial of Elena's vampirism. Which is not an excuse, obviously, it's actually a lot worse than it looks for him to be co-opting her issues to help him deal with his own. But from a characterization perspective, I think that's a pretty impressive move.
And yeah, with the crossbow: Damon's point when he picks up the crossbow is that it only takes the hunter a second to get the jump on her before it's game over. She doesn't get him in time to head off that killing shot, or even a few beats later. All she proves there is that she can get the jump on an antagonist who stops to give a Bond villain speech because they think she's incapacitated, but Damon's point in that lesson is that she can't depend on that happening.
I mean, I think the scene worked really well. The symbolism of her seizing her aggression and embracing Damon after she gets "killed" doesn't have to be subtle, obviously. And as a vampire, as was true when she was human, her strong suit isn't going to be heat-of-the-moment confrontations but setting up situations where she is in control. It just wasn't like "yeah, she Told Him! she's totally battle-ready!"
All she proves there is that she can get the jump on an antagonist who stops to give a Bond villain speech because they think she's incapacitated, but Damon's point in that lesson is that she can't depend on that happening... And as a vampire, as was true when she was human, her strong suit isn't going to be heat-of-the-moment confrontations but setting up situations where she is in control. Riiight, got it. That makes sense. Cheers.
lol yep
And same about Elena's dodging and coping mechanisms. She didn't once lose control of her actions, she "lost control" of her emotions, i.e. acted on pure id. But she can't accept that it was all her.
She’s not supposed to want to; it’s marginally acceptable to be swept up in the throes of passion and indulge when she’s out of control, but acknowledging that desire is different. She’s wired to want it, like the vast majority of her species, but if she wants it she’s BAD so she represses and denies.
Yes. It's a really difficult and complicated thing that's just about impossible to talk about. Because it's clear to me that Elena canonically wants to do X (i.e. gleefully feeding on people, murdering Connor, etc.), but if she rationalizes after the fact that she DIDN'T, then that shuts down the whole conversation in more ways than one.
See, I don’t get where people are getting the idea that Stefan’s characterization as a manipulative douche is not intentional
Neither. And I've bitched long and hard about the handling of Stefan, but this season for the most part has been remarkably on point about his horribleness.
I think Stefan knows, on some level, that Elena doesn’t hate being a vampire. That she might have made peace with it, or even enjoy it. And he just CANNOT DEAL with that.
Yep. And Elena doesn't hate it. She actually is good at it, and if it weren't for the behavior-policing, she would succeed in being okay with what's happened to her (and she still might).
It’s cute that he doesn’t care if Elena’s a human or a vampire (and I believe that’s true, btw), but I don’t see how supporting and enabling Stefan’s controlling douchery because BROS BEFORE HOS is any better than actually engaging in it.
Haha, yes. It's terrible, but just typical of the Salvabros. I think Damon will always choose Stefan over what's right for Elena, what's new in life.
EDITED to clarify what you meant re: this:
She only jumps on Damon after she gets “killed.” It’s a clever little moment - it looks to Elena like it means she knows how to defend herself and she’s ready to get involved, but all that proves is that she missed Damon’s point entirely.
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following.
Reply
Right. That, and it's a tough leap for me, because obviously feeding on someone is inherently predatory in a way that sex is not, and the possibility of compulsion creates a power dynamic that I'm not comfortable imputing to sex. But Elena's conflict about it, and the whole idea of the narrative needing to walk that balance of how much agency and wherewithal she can have around what she is emotionally and biologically driven to do, is a really interesting look at those traditional romance tropes. Because that's the narrative, right? As long as she can deny that she wants to do it, then she *has* to deny that she wants to do it, or the story falls apart. And I don't think I've seen quite this honest a take on the number all that can do to your head as Elena's guilt/shame conflation here.
this season for the most part has been remarkably on point about his horribleness.
Yeah. I mean, I may be overly charitable toward the writers, but I just can't imagine that something which has been consistent for what, 70 episodes is an accident? Stefan is slippery and manipulative and built on deception of self and others and has a truly terrifying relationship with interpersonal power dynamics, and this has always been the case. Whether or not he's always judged harshly enough for it by the narrative is...I guess a question of authorial intent that I can't muster the energy to care about because we know better than they do, obvs.
It struck me as really intentional, too, the way both Elena and Stefan are clinging to their old dynamics with their abusive exes. I'm pretty excited for Stefan's eventual meltdown when it sinks in that he will neverrrrrrrr be free of Klaus. I think denial of that fact is driving the deceptive behavior now as much as denial of Elena's vampirism. Which is not an excuse, obviously, it's actually a lot worse than it looks for him to be co-opting her issues to help him deal with his own. But from a characterization perspective, I think that's a pretty impressive move.
And yeah, with the crossbow: Damon's point when he picks up the crossbow is that it only takes the hunter a second to get the jump on her before it's game over. She doesn't get him in time to head off that killing shot, or even a few beats later. All she proves there is that she can get the jump on an antagonist who stops to give a Bond villain speech because they think she's incapacitated, but Damon's point in that lesson is that she can't depend on that happening.
I mean, I think the scene worked really well. The symbolism of her seizing her aggression and embracing Damon after she gets "killed" doesn't have to be subtle, obviously. And as a vampire, as was true when she was human, her strong suit isn't going to be heat-of-the-moment confrontations but setting up situations where she is in control. It just wasn't like "yeah, she Told Him! she's totally battle-ready!"
Reply
Riiight, got it. That makes sense. Cheers.
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