some meta-blather about care ethic

[pocochina]

I'm not sure how I got on this lately, but I've been thinking a lot about care and justice ethic, and how influential that is in how I approach fictional characters. (By "not sure," I mean I don't even know what narrative got me onto this tangent, days ago. Such is the tangled bramble of fannishness and theory that is my mind.)

In a Different Voice

Comments

[local_max]

BTVS/BSG SERIES SPOILERS

[pocochina]

I agree especially about Buffy in s5 because, yes, and I think that the very reason that it is not selfish is that Buffy's justice ethic is one of the only things that allows her to maintain some sort of boundary between her and the demon world

Yeah. I mean, I love her rather than hating her at S5 because human beings can't. We just can't be fair all the time. There's a limit, and she hit it, I get that. But that doesn't change the fact that if everyone really is equal then yeah, "six billion and one people dying horribly" is actually MORALLY WORSE than "one person dying." by magnitudes. Usually that's a rationalization, but in this case, it really wouldn't have been. Them's the breaks. Whether or not you do right or wrong from there, well, there's a lot of good reasons, which I think were sensitively explored in this narrative.

it takes a Wesley (or, on a good day, a Willow!) to follow the Care Ethic consideration and ditch specific abstract principles that are the principles that actually allow the justice-based heroes,

[red_satin_doll]

I think that the very reason that it is not selfish is that Buffy's justice ethic is one of the only things that allows her to maintain some sort of boundary between her and the demon world; it takes a Wesley (or, on a good day, a Willow!) to follow the Care Ethic consideration and ditch specific abstract principles that are the principles that actually allow the justice-based heroes, especially the genuinely heroy heroes, to do their heroing. Ooh, like your thoughts here. I have a great deal of sympathy for Buffy here (duh) in part because she's not coming from a "screw the world" attitude; she's responding to the threats, not masterminding the situation (at the risk of simplifying things a bit - and I admit I haven't watched AtS so I'm not making an exact comparison by any means, more within BtVS itself); and we see her struggling with the dilemma. And I think it effects her specifically as a woman - the normal world expects her to operate on the care ethic; woman are supposed to be self-sacrificing for their loved ones, esp

[astreamofstars]

I wish my brain worked like yours. I can't articulate anything like this, but yes. Re. Laura at any rate because I've not really watched the rest. One of my favourite things about her is that she's one of the few people who never even questioned humanity's right to survive. That was her starting point and everything just spiralled from there. She just got on with doing what she could to save them.

It's too early here for thinky thoughts. I may come back with some later. But thank you for this. I shall be thinking about it!

[pocochina]

she's one of the few people who never even questioned humanity's right to survive

Yes. And I love that so, so much. Getting mired on that "right to survive" nonsense is a concession which runs counter to basic human rights. Every individual human being has the right to survive, and "humanity" is made up of individual human beings whether or not they are personally involved in X situation/group/decision. Everything after that is policy, about how best to maximize the fulfillment of that promise. *waves stabby pointer finger*

[pocochina]

That is a particular justice ethic type of thinking? But so is "my country is the best country in the world," and so is "everyone must be forcibly converted to my religion or die," and so is "an eye for an eye" and so is "X sexual identity is inherently wrong." Those are all ideals too. Bad, bad ideals, but ideals. Either ethos can be done immorally, or applied ineptly, or ignored.

Like:

They were arguing for slavery. I guess I’m skeptical of any moral framework that allows the possibility of arguing for slavery. Because it's been done before and didn't end well...?

fair enough? But the Biblical justification for slavery and the thousands of years of appeals to rightness via the bible, worked under a straightforward justice ethic. It was something people had decided was moral, so they defended it on idealistic grounds. I'm not saying "that explains everything and everyone was just trying to do the right thing blah blah," obviously, I'm saying, these are pretty much neutral descriptions of diverse thought processes people use when

Re: (tw: Leoben, consent issues)

[pocochina]

I think that's a really good analysis of Leoben. (Perhaps it's a little surprising that I gravitate toward D'Anna, who is justice ethic to the core? Possibly because I'm not asked to endorse it with her, only explore it.)

I do like stories in which every character does what they really think is the right thing, all things considered.

I do too, I just think they're extremely rare. And I think the process of people convincing themselves that what they at bottom really want to do is also fascinating. What I don't love is the way the two are frequently conflated.

[pocochina]

Yeah. I mean, I think justice ethic lends itself very easily to traditional grim square-jawed hero narratives, which are usually going to be individualist men. Whereas intellectually honest consequentialism does deprioritize the protagonist to some extent, and so a narrative has to be (a) willing to do that, (b) strong enough to sustain that, and (c) have at least slighlty tamped down on the built-in invisible misogyny that denigrates caretaking. Rarer and trickier to include, but so much more rewarding when it's part of the conversation.

That's one of my favorite things about the Willow vs. The Box conversation in S3 of Buffy. There's absolutely no doubt that the Scoobies won't for a single second entertain any thought other than exchanging Willow for The Box, but Wesley steps in and says that they are exchanging a *certain* chance of defeating the Mayor (and thus, almost inevitably causing the deaths of more innocent people) to get Willow back.

YES. That's one of my favorite episodes of that season, for precisely that reason.

I

[pocochina]

I haven't seen Nikita, but I've heard so many good things about it that I think I will have to give it a chance.