Cally, Dee, and Ellen: on the reviled feminine on BSG (Dee)

[pocochina]

the womenlovefest magic continues. FASHIONABLY LATE, OKAY.

Day 1: what gender-neutral society?
Day 2: why these ladies?
Day 3: Ellen Tigh
Day 4: Dee

Comments

[scifishipper]

You are so wonderfully articulate about things. I totally envy your brain! (I'm going to try to respond, but forgive me if I've missed your point or am digressing

[pocochina]

I am so glad you enjoyed it! <3

It bothers me that Lee treats Dee without care so often and Dee allows it. I think this is where my anger lies. I wanted her to reject him. I really did and I get so frustrated that she did not.That's totally fair! I feel like I understand why she kept taking him back, but only if I fill in a bit more than I probably should have to, from a technical perspective. But if I do, I totally understand why she does what she does, even if I want to tell her GIRL, NO

[scifishipper]

I think I have a tendency to want perfection out of my characters. I love their flaws but I feel a sense of wanting to PUSH them to do better. I think I have this issue with Dee. When I actually think about Dee as a person - not a character - I know that I would empathize with her completely and might even say, SURE MARRY HIM

[pocochina]

I don't necessarily see the "saving" element that I think you are describing

I think it all goes back to Dee overhearing Lee's "I didn't wanna make it back alive" in RS. Before that, they seemed like friends - flirty but not anything that was a threat to Billy/Dee? But then he went off the deep end and nobody else seems to have known about it but Kara, who was having a hard enough time keeping it together herself at that point (understandably; I don't think there are any villains in this subplot), and so Dee kind of decides Lee is her damsel in distress. That's when she starts pressing him on the relationship. I think she stayed with Billy during that time because she really loved Billy, but she was attracted to Lee and didn't know how else to get close enough to help him, so she made some bad choices there

[ever_neutral]

FLAWLESS POST. Yeah, I've never understood why people direct their dislike of the quad of doom solely on to Dee. Eh.

What she gets out of the relationship is the effort she puts into it.

YES. So well put.

She’s going to save the ever-loving shit out of Lee Adama, whether he likes it or not.

AND THIS. Sob. Things we have talked about.

I... don't have any more to add, but I will second all your points.

[pocochina]

There are plenty of fair criticisms you could make of that storyline, but I've gotta say, Dee-hate is really not one of them, and it bums me out when I see it.

[anonymous]

Hope it's OK to jump on this as I find it a fascinating subject

[pocochina]

hi there

[scifishipper]

I feel like fandom generally has this very normative take on Lee? Like, because Lee is someone who likes to give moralizing speeches, he fits in this "moral character" space. Then whatever he does that can arguably be interpreted as good is taken as good and doesn't get appropriately interrogated. Everything he does that really can't be construed in that way is OOC or bad writing and doesn't count. Like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It's "no true Leland." Which does a massive disservice to the story and characters, especially Dee/Lee, which I do think was quite a fascinating relationship, and Lee himself, who I think got possibly the strongest character development on the show.

THANK YOU FOR THIS. I keep talking about Lee's flaws and his mistakes and everyone keeps justifying it and talking about his good motives. Drives me crazy. He is not perfect, nor is he always noble or selfless or sometimes even nice! He's a human with all of the frailties and failings we all have. That is what makes him so fascinating.

LOVE THIS DISCUSSION

[pocochina]

YES! And I love him the most when he's at his worst. A character who does what he should do from an objective outside POV is just a plot device. Lee is someone whose struggles I understand. I usually disagree with his actions! He is a huge screw-up! But I understand why he screws up, and I see him try and try, and...<3. YOU UNDERSTAND.

[local_max]

I'm loving these posts. I have lately just been loading them up on my browser when I have a brief internet window between work things and reading them at home. You are awesome. I'm sorry I'm not really around enough to comment more fully. I might do so soon. <3

[local_max]

(Though -- I would 1000% add Tory to the list of "reviled feminine", though of course it's your posts! I'm still so angry about the Tyrol thing in the finale that I can't deal. And I liked Tyrol before then, all things considered -- I thought the complex swirl of emotions surrounding Cally were something he dealt with badly, but in ways that I got, even if they were often terrible. But then no, he gets RIGHTEOUS REVENGE fuck off. Sigh.) Can't wait for Cally.

[pocochina]

I went back and forth on Tory, because I LOVE HER SO FREAKING MUCH, and she's definitely a Hated Woman who gets hated on in misogynist ways. But I don't know if she's hated on because of actions that code feminine, if that makes sense? I feel like she goes more with Laura and Kara, where the treatment is about her co-opting power that we usually consider masculine. I couldn't quite think of how to fit her into this particular series, though I really did think about it. (chaila43 is doing a fabulous Tory week, if you get a chance to check it out.)

TYROL HATE PARTY UP IN HURRR ALWAYS. TEAM TORY.

[pocochina]

OH HEY YOU! I'm so glad you're enjoying, I'd love to hear your thoughts if you get a chance but don't worry about it. <3

[korenap]

I'm later than you and I loved this

[pocochina]

You hate in others what you have the most trouble accepting in yourself.

Excellent point! I often think Dee/Lee is far and away the most realistic relationship on BSG. Maybe it's entirely too painfully relatable for people, but it's not fair to hate on Dee for that.

oh my goodness, did you write a Dee post and I missed it somehow?