Why are you so awesomeeeeeee? You pull my thoughtssss out from my skull and present them in a totally articulate ~manner.
The continued referral to Laura Roslin as a “kindergarten teacher” by whichever character hopes to discredit her at that moment is, absolutely, coded misogyny.
People DON'T think this is coded misogyny? ::head-desk::
WE ARE ALL LEE ADAMA, LAWL.
LAWL. But also yes. I'll have to ponder.
We don’t hate them for being women, but we do hate them for choosing some degree of femininity. Because EW, why would you do THAT, when MASCULINITY, that’s where it’s at! WOOOO, WE LOVE STARBUCK!!! Why don’t they all just be more like Starbuck!!!
UGGHHHH YES. THIS. And obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity? SHE'S MORE OF A MAN THAN THAT LEE ADAMA. ::head-desk again:: (Which is to say, word on that subject. Things we have discussed.)
Also, I'm tickled that you used TVD as an example of doing this better, because that show's treatment of women is... a matter of contentiousness, in fandom, LET US SAY. But agreed, it's still better at treading traditional femininity as *valid*. So long as shows like BSG have men like Bill Adama as worthy authority figures in-universe... well, I hate to be pessimistic, but WE'RE ALL DOOMED.
I mean, I've yet to see anyone else say it explicitly? Even to drown out the LALALA BUT THE SHOWURRRRRRRZ bullshit. I'm willing to be the one to risk sounding like Captain Agathon Obvious on this.
obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity?
SO PERFECTLY PUT. THANK YOU. I love Starbuck too; as many issues as I have with where her story eventually went, I would not change a thing about her. But I still resist - resent - the idea that there's one lateral scale of self-presentation. It is NO BETTER to say "all the other women suck because they are girly" than to say "Kara sucks because she often acts in a way that codes as masculine." Because that's still about defining her in opposition to femininity and expecting/only valuing the exceptional. no no no on that zero-sum bullshit. JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
I think specifically - thanks to your most wonderful Elena scholarship! - TVD is doing something really interesting with the archetype of the feminine object and turning her into a well-developed subject. Without getting into the show's feminism as a whole, it's an interesting (and still, sadly, rare) idea that improves the show on a lot of levels. I think the BSG women have good enough characterization that there's potential for that kind of read, but it does take a little more examination than it probably should.
YES. I love Kara as she is too! But honestly, the fact that she can Do It Like A Dude is probably the least interesting thing about her for me.
JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
UGH, THIS. I... really want to rant about all the coded misogyny that goes on in fandom? Shit like creating fandom-hierarchies re: female characters is one of those rant-worthy things. My thoughts are pretty scattered, though.
Aww, cheers! (Actually, TVD's feminism as a whole is another topic I want to have a really meaty discussion about, but it's... hard. /OT)
DOWN WITH GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME. UP WITH GIRL-ON-GIRL SHIPPING. LAURA/ELLEN 4LYF.
agreed on all of it. I've had to work to separate my anger at how Dee and Cally were treated from my love of the characters, and that's definitely a narrative failure to need to do so. But I think I have, and I really do get a lot more joy out of the show now. Whereas yes, because Ellen got resurrected, it eased up on those complications for me. I am so excited to see other people appreciate.
The continued referral to Laura Roslin as a “kindergarten teacher” by whichever character hopes to discredit her at that moment is, absolutely, coded misogyny.
People DON'T think this is coded misogyny? ::head-desk::
WE ARE ALL LEE ADAMA, LAWL.
LAWL. But also yes. I'll have to ponder.
We don’t hate them for being women, but we do hate them for choosing some degree of femininity. Because EW, why would you do THAT, when MASCULINITY, that’s where it’s at! WOOOO, WE LOVE STARBUCK!!! Why don’t they all just be more like Starbuck!!!
UGGHHHH YES. THIS. And obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity? SHE'S MORE OF A MAN THAN THAT LEE ADAMA. ::head-desk again:: (Which is to say, word on that subject. Things we have discussed.)
Also, I'm tickled that you used TVD as an example of doing this better, because that show's treatment of women is... a matter of contentiousness, in fandom, LET US SAY. But agreed, it's still better at treading traditional femininity as *valid*. So long as shows like BSG have men like Bill Adama as worthy authority figures in-universe... well, I hate to be pessimistic, but WE'RE ALL DOOMED.
Reply
I mean, I've yet to see anyone else say it explicitly? Even to drown out the LALALA BUT THE SHOWURRRRRRRZ bullshit. I'm willing to be the one to risk sounding like Captain Agathon Obvious on this.
obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity?
SO PERFECTLY PUT. THANK YOU. I love Starbuck too; as many issues as I have with where her story eventually went, I would not change a thing about her. But I still resist - resent - the idea that there's one lateral scale of self-presentation. It is NO BETTER to say "all the other women suck because they are girly" than to say "Kara sucks because she often acts in a way that codes as masculine." Because that's still about defining her in opposition to femininity and expecting/only valuing the exceptional. no no no on that zero-sum bullshit. JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
I think specifically - thanks to your most wonderful Elena scholarship! - TVD is doing something really interesting with the archetype of the feminine object and turning her into a well-developed subject. Without getting into the show's feminism as a whole, it's an interesting (and still, sadly, rare) idea that improves the show on a lot of levels. I think the BSG women have good enough characterization that there's potential for that kind of read, but it does take a little more examination than it probably should.
Reply
JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
UGH, THIS. I... really want to rant about all the coded misogyny that goes on in fandom? Shit like creating fandom-hierarchies re: female characters is one of those rant-worthy things. My thoughts are pretty scattered, though.
Aww, cheers! (Actually, TVD's feminism as a whole is another topic I want to have a really meaty discussion about, but it's... hard. /OT)
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
agreed on all of it. I've had to work to separate my anger at how Dee and Cally were treated from my love of the characters, and that's definitely a narrative failure to need to do so. But I think I have, and I really do get a lot more joy out of the show now. Whereas yes, because Ellen got resurrected, it eased up on those complications for me. I am so excited to see other people appreciate.
Reply
Leave a comment