Why are you so awesomeeeeeee? You pull my thoughtssss out from my skull and present them in a totally articulate ~manner.
The continued referral to Laura Roslin as a “kindergarten teacher” by whichever character hopes to discredit her at that moment is, absolutely, coded misogyny.
People DON'T think this is coded misogyny? ::head-desk::
WE ARE ALL LEE ADAMA, LAWL.
LAWL. But also yes. I'll have to ponder.
We don’t hate them for being women, but we do hate them for choosing some degree of femininity. Because EW, why would you do THAT, when MASCULINITY, that’s where it’s at! WOOOO, WE LOVE STARBUCK!!! Why don’t they all just be more like Starbuck!!!UGGHHHH YES. THIS. And obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity? SHE'S MORE OF A MAN THAN THAT LEE ADAMA. ::head-desk again:: (Which is to say,
( ... )
I mean, I've yet to see anyone else say it explicitly? Even to drown out the LALALA BUT THE SHOWURRRRRRRZ bullshit. I'm willing to be the one to risk sounding like Captain Agathon Obvious on this.
obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity?
SO PERFECTLY PUT. THANK YOU. I love Starbuck too; as many issues as I have with where her story eventually went, I would not change a thing about her. But I still resist - resent - the idea that there's one lateral scale of self-presentation. It is NO BETTER to say "all the other women suck because they are girly" than to say "Kara sucks because she often acts in a way that codes as masculine." Because that's still about defining her in opposition to femininity and expecting/only valuing the exceptional. no no no
( ... )
YES. I love Kara as she is too! But honestly, the fact that she can Do It Like A Dude is probably the least interesting thing about her for me.
JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
UGH, THIS. I... really want to rant about all the coded misogyny that goes on in fandom? Shit like creating fandom-hierarchies re: female characters is one of those rant-worthy things. My thoughts are pretty scattered, though.
Aww, cheers! (Actually, TVD's feminism as a whole is another topic I want to have a really meaty discussion about, but it's... hard. /OT)
This post! Poco, I love the way you think! I mean these things:
They live by the rules of femininity in their world, which are not that different from femininity in our world, and because of this they end up secondary in their own lives and their own narratives.
In a truly gender-egalitarian world, deciding that one is happiest as a feminine-presenting lady would not much matter to people either way!
But then you also have the issue that even though fandom loves Kara Thrace, in the real world, females who act like her are generally NOT loved. Right? I mean, we punish women who behave too much like men (although we use different words to describe the traits - eg. bossy/decisive.) And of course, Lee. I don't know that it is any easier - or maybe it is harder - to be a man presenting feminine than a woman presenting masculine, in RL. But of course real people are all over the spectrum.
Because it’s all about giving women the latitude to rise up to a normatively masculine standard - why would men want the space to change?Ugg, yes.
( ... )
But then you also have the issue that even though fandom loves Kara Thrace, in the real world, females who act like her are generally NOT loved. Right? I mean, we punish women who behave too much like men
YES YES YES SNAPS FOR THIS EXACTLY. It's such a clear impossible standard! Everyone's standard for a fictional woman is female masculinity - but only because it's unreal. Such a no-win.
It's as if we feel the need to distance ourselves from all the (perceived) anti-feminist femaleness so we condemn it.YES. I understand where it comes from. I do. Because femininity expectations are so arbitrary and demanding, it's only natural to push back against that. But either the set of traits we call "femininity" is a legitimate choice that's only devalued because it's associated with women, in which case we shouldn't participate in that devaluing, or it's a survival mechanism, and it's just shit to victim-blame someone for that, and it's usually somewhere in between. Nowhere on that spectrum do I see more justification for condemnation than
( ... )
I have to say, when they made Kara get all bent out of shape over Kat and Top Gun status in the Scar episode I was screaming. WRONG!! She is not a macho shit head, Don't make her a macho Shithead. She doesn't need to prove anything about flying, she knows she's the best. You just gave her a completely masculine psychology and made her insecure aboout that which she draws her strength from - knowing how frakking good she is. BARF!
YES. Scar could've gone to so many interesting places, and instead it turned into SHE'S SCREWING UP AT WORK BECAUSE SHE'S MOONING OVER A BOY. come on, really?
Comments 8
The continued referral to Laura Roslin as a “kindergarten teacher” by whichever character hopes to discredit her at that moment is, absolutely, coded misogyny.
People DON'T think this is coded misogyny? ::head-desk::
WE ARE ALL LEE ADAMA, LAWL.
LAWL. But also yes. I'll have to ponder.
We don’t hate them for being women, but we do hate them for choosing some degree of femininity. Because EW, why would you do THAT, when MASCULINITY, that’s where it’s at! WOOOO, WE LOVE STARBUCK!!! Why don’t they all just be more like Starbuck!!!UGGHHHH YES. THIS. And obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity? SHE'S MORE OF A MAN THAN THAT LEE ADAMA. ::head-desk again:: (Which is to say, ( ... )
Reply
I mean, I've yet to see anyone else say it explicitly? Even to drown out the LALALA BUT THE SHOWURRRRRRRZ bullshit. I'm willing to be the one to risk sounding like Captain Agathon Obvious on this.
obviously, Starbuck is my woman, BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY WOMAN WORTHY OF ADMIRATION. Fandom is so fucking typical here. Not that there aren't tons who love Kara for all her complexities, good and bad, but would there be so much worship if she wasn't deemed as the standard for masculinity?
SO PERFECTLY PUT. THANK YOU. I love Starbuck too; as many issues as I have with where her story eventually went, I would not change a thing about her. But I still resist - resent - the idea that there's one lateral scale of self-presentation. It is NO BETTER to say "all the other women suck because they are girly" than to say "Kara sucks because she often acts in a way that codes as masculine." Because that's still about defining her in opposition to femininity and expecting/only valuing the exceptional. no no no ( ... )
Reply
JUST SAY NO TO GIRL-ON-GIRL CRIME.
UGH, THIS. I... really want to rant about all the coded misogyny that goes on in fandom? Shit like creating fandom-hierarchies re: female characters is one of those rant-worthy things. My thoughts are pretty scattered, though.
Aww, cheers! (Actually, TVD's feminism as a whole is another topic I want to have a really meaty discussion about, but it's... hard. /OT)
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
They live by the rules of femininity in their world, which are not that different from femininity in our world, and because of this they end up secondary in their own lives and their own narratives.
In a truly gender-egalitarian world, deciding that one is happiest as a feminine-presenting lady would not much matter to people either way!
But then you also have the issue that even though fandom loves Kara Thrace, in the real world, females who act like her are generally NOT loved. Right? I mean, we punish women who behave too much like men (although we use different words to describe the traits - eg. bossy/decisive.) And of course, Lee. I don't know that it is any easier - or maybe it is harder - to be a man presenting feminine than a woman presenting masculine, in RL. But of course real people are all over the spectrum.
Because it’s all about giving women the latitude to rise up to a normatively masculine standard - why would men want the space to change?Ugg, yes. ( ... )
Reply
YES YES YES SNAPS FOR THIS EXACTLY. It's such a clear impossible standard! Everyone's standard for a fictional woman is female masculinity - but only because it's unreal. Such a no-win.
It's as if we feel the need to distance ourselves from all the (perceived) anti-feminist femaleness so we condemn it.YES. I understand where it comes from. I do. Because femininity expectations are so arbitrary and demanding, it's only natural to push back against that. But either the set of traits we call "femininity" is a legitimate choice that's only devalued because it's associated with women, in which case we shouldn't participate in that devaluing, or it's a survival mechanism, and it's just shit to victim-blame someone for that, and it's usually somewhere in between. Nowhere on that spectrum do I see more justification for condemnation than ( ... )
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